DWS
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Post by DWS on Aug 17, 2019 17:53:53 GMT
Controllers are like an insurance policy. Ideally they should be sat there doing nothing - this means the service is running as booked with no issues. The plan should just work with no intervention. Controllers should only need to intervene when something happens outside the plan (which tends to be a lot of the time!). With industrial action, a plan might be produced with limited resources that can be guaranteed. Sometimes these will be managers operating trains who have limited experience who are more likely to have operational incidents. Sometimes management might want to introduce more trains into the plan if more drivers turn up to work than expected - this is a huge workload for controllers, as putting trains into a timetable is more work than taking them out! If managers operate trains it’s likely to upset the unions and prolong the strike . |
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Post by phil on Aug 17, 2019 18:41:39 GMT
Controllers are like an insurance policy. Ideally they should be sat there doing nothing - this means the service is running as booked with no issues. The plan should just work with no intervention. Controllers should only need to intervene when something happens outside the plan (which tends to be a lot of the time!). With industrial action, a plan might be produced with limited resources that can be guaranteed. Sometimes these will be managers operating trains who have limited experience who are more likely to have operational incidents. Sometimes management might want to introduce more trains into the plan if more drivers turn up to work than expected - this is a huge workload for controllers, as putting trains into a timetable is more work than taking them out! If managers operate trains it’s likely to upset the unions and prolong the strike . There is an expectation from the public (many of whom do not have the luxury of a forceful / militant trade Union to protect them) and right wing politicians that transport operators will do their upmost to provide a service on strike days. As such it doesn’t matter what the trade unions think about the practice (from a legal perspective UK law makes it crystal clear that any attempt to intimidate those coming into work is prohibited and will result in large fines), those managers with the required competencies are expected to take on front line duties. |
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Aug 17, 2019 18:57:18 GMT
If managers operate trains it’s likely to upset the unions and prolong the strike . There is an expectation from the public (many of whom do not have the luxury of a forceful / militant trade Union to protect them) and right wing politicians that transport operators will do their upmost to provide a service on strike days. As such it doesn’t matter what the trade unions think about the practice (from a legal perspective UK law makes it crystal clear that any attempt to intimidate those coming into work must be allowed to do so), those managers with the required competencies are expected to take on front line duties. Can you tell me when managers have operated trains in passenger service on the London Underground in the last few years , when there is a strike on a line? |
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Post by greggygreggygreg on Aug 17, 2019 18:59:24 GMT
If managers operate trains it’s likely to upset the unions and prolong the strike . There is an expectation from the public (many of whom do not have the luxury of a forceful / militant trade Union to protect them) and right wing politicians that transport operators will do their upmost to provide a service on strike days. As such it doesn’t matter what the trade unions think about the practice (from a legal perspective UK law makes it crystal clear that any attempt to intimidate those coming into work must be allowed to do so), those managers with the required competencies are expected to take on front line duties. And if managers operate trains on strike days, this in itself causes disruption as it causes managers to get behind on their work causing a backlog |
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Post by phil on Aug 17, 2019 19:32:46 GMT
There is an expectation from the public (many of whom do not have the luxury of a forceful / militant trade Union to protect them) and right wing politicians that transport operators will do their upmost to provide a service on strike days. As such it doesn’t matter what the trade unions think about the practice (from a legal perspective UK law makes it crystal clear that any attempt to intimidate those coming into work must be allowed to do so), those managers with the required competencies are expected to take on front line duties. Can you tell me when managers have operated trains in passenger service on the London Underground in the last few years , when there is a strike on a line? I use the term ‘managers’ loosely as I am not aware of the exact nature of the LU departments concerned. However it’s certainly the case that during the Southern strikes, various managers retained their train driving ability despite not regularly being in the front line and thus were sent out to drive trains during the strike. Similarly if I went on strike then my depot manager would be expected to go out of the office to fix S&T faults.... |
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Post by phil on Aug 17, 2019 19:34:47 GMT
There is an expectation from the public (many of whom do not have the luxury of a forceful / militant trade Union to protect them) and right wing politicians that transport operators will do their upmost to provide a service on strike days. As such it doesn’t matter what the trade unions think about the practice (from a legal perspective UK law makes it crystal clear that any attempt to intimidate those coming into work must be allowed to do so), those managers with the required competencies are expected to take on front line duties. And if managers operate trains on strike days, this in itself causes disruption as it causes managers to get behind on their work causing a backlog Indeed so - but given the negative public / political reaction to service disruption then a backlog of managerial work is a small price to pay for an operator who wants to be seen to be doing its upmost to minimise said disruption. |
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Post by superteacher on Aug 17, 2019 19:37:17 GMT
Nowadays, more and more managers are external appointments and have not. therefore, come through the ranks as it were. Due to this, I think it would be unlikely if many managers held the necessary documentation to act as train operators.
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Post by zbang on Aug 17, 2019 19:46:47 GMT
And if managers operate trains on strike days, this in itself causes disruption as it causes managers to get behind on their work causing a backlog Well, yes. OTOH ofttimes "management" isn't usually service-critical and salaried managers can be called to make up the time/work without additional pay. (Not to "derail" the thread, but a fine example of why a manager shouldn't operate unless they're deemed competent is found in the Malbone St wreck in New York City. You'll have to look that up yourself.) |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 19, 2019 10:54:24 GMT
For the record, LU (London Undergound) managers do not drive trains during strikes.
Some do maintain a driving licence of sorts, but this is strictly for emergency's or to qualify them to assess drivers as part of the competence management cycle that all LU staff are regularly monitored through.
LU managers can maintain their "licence" by driving a passenger train in service under the supervision of an instructor operator. Managers are never allowed to operate trains in passenger service without an instructor operator present in the train cab.
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Post by underover on Aug 19, 2019 16:03:32 GMT
LU managers can maintain their "licence" by driving a passenger train in service under the supervision of an instructor operator. Managers are never allowed to operate trains in passenger service without an instructor operator present in the train cab. Is this to prevent the whole 'use managers to reduce effect of strike action' or purely down to route knowledge and how large a gap it could potentially be between driving turns? |
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Post by zbang on Aug 19, 2019 16:32:33 GMT
So, if "managers" aren't driving trains during a strike, who is? They'd have to be competent/qualified but not part of the union/labor unit striking and probably not part of another union. The set of people ticking all the requisite boxes has to be small.
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Post by brigham on Aug 19, 2019 16:49:51 GMT
Special Constables, sworn in for the purpose, presumably.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 19, 2019 17:16:11 GMT
So, if "managers" aren't driving trains during a strike, who is? They'd have to be competent/qualified but not part of the union/labor unit striking and probably not part of another union. The set of people ticking all the requisite boxes has to be small. Mostly they are drivers in other unions (laws regarding strikes in the UK are very strict and striking to support another union is illegal). But there are also drivers who are not part of a union and drivers who have chosen not to strike. Typically the way strikes on LU are run is that staff refuse to sign on to shifts that begin between set hours, but do not walk out part way through a shift. This means that if a shift runs from say 09:00 Monday to 08:59 Tuesday that a driver rostered to work shifts 06:00 to 14:00 both days will work their Monday shift but not their Tuesday one, while a colleague rostered to work from 12:00 to 20:00 both days will not work on Monday but will do on Tuesday. |
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Aug 19, 2019 17:45:24 GMT
Special Constables, sworn in for the purpose, presumably. Were is your evidence for this statement ? |
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Post by superteacher on Aug 19, 2019 17:58:21 GMT
Special Constables, sworn in for the purpose, presumablyMOM. Were is your evidence for this statement ? There will be no evidence for it because it isn’t true, MOD COMMENT
brigham, this is not the first time where you have made a post which is just plainly bizarre. Please think before you post. |
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Post by brigham on Aug 20, 2019 16:34:56 GMT
Were is your evidence for this statement ? There will be no evidence for it because it isn’t true, MOD COMMENT
brigham , this is not the first time where you have made a post which is just plainly bizarre. Please think before you post.Sorry. I thought everyone was aware of the measures taken to keep transport running during the General Strike. I'll re-phrase it with this in mind. "Perhaps they are driven by Special Constables, sworn in for the purpose, just like they did during the General Strike". (Big smile!) |
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Post by zbang on Aug 20, 2019 16:38:32 GMT
Mostly they are drivers in other unions (laws regarding strikes in the UK are very strict and striking to support another union is illegal). But there are also drivers who are not part of a union and drivers who have chosen not to strike. Typically the way strikes on LU are run is that staff refuse to sign on to shifts that begin between set hours, but do not walk out part way through a shift. This means that if a shift runs ... Ah, thanks for the explanation. I'm kind of surprised that some drivers aren't members or that they wouldn't honor the strike. (Many questions about how the strikes are handled, picket lines and the crossing thereof, etc, but that's a different topic.) "This means that if a shift runs from"Did you mean to write "strike" instead of "shift" there? I think so. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 20, 2019 17:59:53 GMT
There are very few drivers anywhere on the Tube that aren't in a union, roughly two thirds are ASLEF and the rest are RMT.
Usually if one of the unions calls a strike over an issue that affects all TOps then members of the other union will respect the strike but that isn't always the case. Back in 2014 when RMT and TSSA called a strike over ticket office closures most ASLEF and a sizeable number of RMT drivers booked on for work even though RMT were picketing.
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Post by drainrat on Aug 20, 2019 19:10:47 GMT
Even non union members could refuse to cross a picket line, gone are the days when union subs were taken from payroll
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Post by jimbo on Aug 21, 2019 19:30:10 GMT
A vague memory has surfaced of a proposed long-term system-wide strike around 1980. Signals dept had no experience of a long-term stoppage, and were worried that relays may stick so it was proposed that Area Managers would work the occasional empty train on all routes every day. But talks overcame the strike, so it never became reality.
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Post by phil on Aug 21, 2019 23:56:10 GMT
Even non union members could refuse to cross a picket line, gone are the days when union subs were taken from payroll While this may have been acceptable in the past (and the phrasing suggests we are), the current laws around industrial action are quite clear - only persons belonging to the specific trade union involved in the dispute have any protection under law should they chose to strike (and even then only for the first 6 weeks I think if you stick strictly to what the legislation says). Anyone else not coming in and citing the dispute as a reason for absence is considered to be taking ‘secondary action’ - which is illegal and they thus can be subject to disciplinary proceedings including dismissal should their employer be sufficiently hostile to trade unions to push the matter. |
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Post by zbang on Aug 22, 2019 2:08:00 GMT
Anyone else not coming in and citing the dispute as a reason for absence is considered to be taking ‘secondary action’ - which is illegal and they thus can be subject to disciplinary proceedings including dismissal should their employer be sufficiently hostile to trade unions to push the matter. I suspect it's not possible for TfL facilities (or even with UK laws?), but it's common over here for construction sites and large buildings to have specific entrances for various unions or contractors (which may employ members of other unions) so members of a non-striking union don't have to cross an actual picket line. |
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Aug 22, 2019 6:49:43 GMT
Anyone else not coming in and citing the dispute as a reason for absence is considered to be taking ‘secondary action’ - which is illegal and they thus can be subject to disciplinary proceedings including dismissal should their employer be sufficiently hostile to trade unions to push the matter. I suspect it's not possible for TfL facilities (or even with UK laws?), but it's common over here for construction sites and large buildings to have specific entrances for various unions or contractors (which may employ members of other unions) so members of a non-striking union don't have to cross an actual picket line. What city are you in, do you have any photos of the buildings or sites with different entrances for different unions etc.. |
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Post by philthetube on Aug 22, 2019 7:12:27 GMT
Even non union members could refuse to cross a picket line, gone are the days when union subs were taken from payroll While this may have been acceptable in the past (and the phrasing suggests we are), the current laws around industrial action are quite clear - only persons belonging to the specific trade union involved in the dispute have any protection under law should they chose to strike (and even then only for the first 6 weeks I think if you stick strictly to what the legislation says). Anyone else not coming in and citing the dispute as a reason for absence is considered to be taking ‘secondary action’ - which is illegal and they thus can be subject to disciplinary proceedings including dismissal should their employer be sufficiently hostile to trade unions to push the matter. However I am not sure how a company would know who is a union member. I suspect it's not possible for TfL facilities (or even with UK laws?), but it's common over here for construction sites and large buildings to have specific entrances for various unions or contractors (which may employ members of other unions) so members of a non-striking union don't have to cross an actual picket line. What city are you in, do you have any photos of the buildings or sites with different entrances for different unions etc.. Most depots have more than one entrance, pickets cannot be on LUL land so people wanting to avoid a picket line could in many instances. |
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Aug 22, 2019 14:11:36 GMT
There will be no evidence for it because it isn’t true, MOD COMMENT
brigham , this is not the first time where you have made a post which is just plainly bizarre. Please think before you post.Sorry. I thought everyone was aware of the measures taken to keep transport running during the General Strike. I'll re-phrase it with this in mind. "Perhaps they are driven by Special Constables, sworn in for the purpose, just like they did during the General Strike". (Big smile!) The General Strike was in 1926, it's not a fact most people today would be aware of . |
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Post by drainrat on Aug 22, 2019 15:49:31 GMT
Even non union members could refuse to cross a picket line, gone are the days when union subs were taken from payroll While this may have been acceptable in the past (and the phrasing suggests we are), the current laws around industrial action are quite clear - only persons belonging to the specific trade union involved in the dispute have any protection under law should they chose to strike (and even then only for the first 6 weeks I think if you stick strictly to what the legislation says). Anyone else not coming in and citing the dispute as a reason for absence is considered to be taking ‘secondary action’ - which is illegal and they thus can be subject to disciplinary proceedings including dismissal should their employer be sufficiently hostile to trade unions to push the matter. Indeed, but no one knows who is in what union other than the unions themselves. As we know, there are 'day' memberships too for people to have the chance to join the striking union etc. |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Aug 22, 2019 17:15:24 GMT
Sorry. I thought everyone was aware of the measures taken to keep transport running during the General Strike. I'll re-phrase it with this in mind. "Perhaps they are driven by Special Constables, sworn in for the purpose, just like they did during the General Strike". (Big smile!) The General Strike was in 1926, it's not a fact most people today would be aware of . . |
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Post by philthetube on Aug 22, 2019 18:39:45 GMT
There are not enough,in fact barely any, managers qualified to drive passenger trains in service and it would take weeks to train them.
Like all operators LUL have a safety case which they must abide by and could not take short cuts with training to get trains running.
The numbers which would be needed to run a safe level of service on any line would be huge and it would only be possible to run token services on the outer reaches of lines.
Most front line managers, (those directly related to day to day running or trains), would be needed to do their own jobs anyway and these would from the majority of managers with any driving experience.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 22, 2019 19:23:00 GMT
To put some numbers to philthetube's point, to run 75% of the scheduled peak service* on all lines would require 412 managers driving trains, assuming they could work both peak periods and you needed none spare (which are both not true): | | 100% service | 75% service | | Bakerloo | 31 | 24 | | Central | 78 | 59 | | C & H | 33 | 25 | | District | 76 | 57 | | Jubilee | 58 | 44 | | Metropolitan | 49 | 37 | | Northern | 96 | 72 | | Piccadilly | 78 | 59 | | Victoria | 41 | 31 | | W&C | 5 | 4 | | | | | TOTAL | 545 | 412 | | Total -W&C | 540 | 408 |
(all figures rounded up to the nearest whole number) *Defined as 75% of the highest number of trains in service of any Monday-Friday snapshot in the current working timetables available on the TfL website. In reality it would be more complicated than this service would be prioritised to the busier stretches of line and duplication would be minimised - e.g. the Bakerloo very likely wouldn't run north of Queen's Park and the Circle and Waterloo & City lines probably wouldn't run. Even if the normal service pattern was retained, I guess that running 75% of the number of trips and operating 75% of the trains would not be the same thing. |
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Post by philthetube on Aug 22, 2019 20:15:08 GMT
Based on a 8.30 maximum shift length they could only work one peak.
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