Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 15, 2019 12:06:10 GMT
Stanmore has been used as a rallying point for coach services when National Rail is closed. I've been there and seen it for myself, picking a LU staff member up after a late shift. That's a good point - Greater Anglia and predecessors have often organised rail replacement buses/coaches from Newbury Park when lines are closed into Liverpool Street. |
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Post by Chris L on Apr 15, 2019 12:27:34 GMT
Stanmore has been used as a rallying point for coach services when National Rail is closed. I've been there and seen it for myself, picking a LU staff member up after a late shift. That's a good point - Greater Anglia and predecessors have often organised rail replacement buses/coaches from Newbury Park when lines are closed into Liverpool Street. It's also used for parking buses on Christmas night/day when they can't all fit in the garage. |
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Post by phil on Apr 16, 2019 7:44:02 GMT
I don't doubt that - but the car parks do not belong to NR, they belong to TfL who have a direct obligation to Londoners through the GLA.
Londoners (or even non Londoners come to that) do not have any direct political relationship with NR other than via the SOS for transport who is unlikely to pay much attention to whether Virgin trains can run replacement buses / coaches to Stanmore or not.
While it might not be as quick there is nothing stopping Virgin from running coaches / buses from Milton Keynes to Luton Airport Parkway and make folk use Thameslink (which is after all a fellow NR operator) rather than TfL
Furthermore there is a well established principle that we do not base our infrastructure needs around 'just in case' scenarios or simply for their diversionary use - which is why nobody is in any rush to reopen the railway via Okehampton and Tavistock to provide a 'backup' on the few weeks a year the weather forces closure of the coastal route via Dawlish.
Thus if the GLA / Mayor believe they have an obligation to the people of London to free up as much land as possible for affordable housing, the occasional use of Underground station car parks by NR operators is an irrelevance
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Post by brigham on Apr 16, 2019 7:55:08 GMT
The purpose of station car parks is so people can park their cars and travel on by train, which is easier than driving the whole way.
But, if housing needs are more pressing, we'll just have to take the car instead.
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Post by superteacher on Apr 16, 2019 8:06:35 GMT
The purpose of station car parks is so people can park their cars and travel on by train, which is easier than driving the whole way. But, if housing needs are more pressing, we'll just have to take the car instead. There aren’t sufficient parking spaces in Central London. Anyway, the days of the car as we know it are numbered. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 16, 2019 8:22:00 GMT
If there's nowhere to park your car at the Tube station you can always take the bus there. Or cycle. Or walk
Khan said he wanted fewer cars on the roads and encourage more people to use public transport, cycling, walking, etc.
#cunningplanmlord
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Post by 35b on Apr 16, 2019 8:52:06 GMT
If there's nowhere to park your car at the Tube station you can always take the bus there. Or cycle. Or walk Khan said he wanted fewer cars on the roads and encourage more people to use public transport, cycling, walking, etc. #cunningplanmlord And when the cycle isn't practical, the bus doesn't go there and it's too far to sensibly walk? I feel for the poor so and sos living near these stations who will find that their streets get blocked up by people who would have parked in the station car parks. Not to mention the implications for the occupants of the new social housing who may "benefit" from the policy decision to ramp right down on parking provision near to stations. And, no, superteacher, I don't think that the death of the private car will be upon us for many years yet. They just meet too many needs that public transport can't sensibly deliver on. |
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Post by superteacher on Apr 16, 2019 8:56:56 GMT
If there's nowhere to park your car at the Tube station you can always take the bus there. Or cycle. Or walk Khan said he wanted fewer cars on the roads and encourage more people to use public transport, cycling, walking, etc. #cunningplanmlord And when the cycle isn't practical, the bus doesn't go there and it's too far to sensibly walk? I feel for the poor so and sos living near these stations who will find that their streets get blocked up by people who would have parked in the station car parks. Not to mention the implications for the occupants of the new social housing who may "benefit" from the policy decision to ramp right down on parking provision near to stations. And, no, superteacher, I don't think that the death of the private car will be upon us for many years yet. They just meet too many needs that public transport can't sensibly deliver on. It may not happen overnight but with the advent of driverless cars, there will no longer be a need for the car to stay parked at the station. It could be programmed to go somewhere else afterwards. Maybe driverless cars won’t be owned by individuals? We just don’t know yet. |
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Post by countryman on Apr 16, 2019 9:12:59 GMT
If there's nowhere to park your car at the Tube station you can always take the bus there. Or cycle. Or walk Khan said he wanted fewer cars on the roads and encourage more people to use public transport, cycling, walking, etc. #cunningplanmlord And when the cycle isn't practical, the bus doesn't go there and it's too far to sensibly walk? I feel for the poor so and sos living near these stations who will find that their streets get blocked up by people who would have parked in the station car parks. Not to mention the implications for the occupants of the new social housing who may "benefit" from the policy decision to ramp right down on parking provision near to stations. And, no, superteacher , I don't think that the death of the private car will be upon us for many years yet. They just meet too many needs that public transport can't sensibly deliver on. And when I drive from the country to Hounslow West to park, and find it built over, what do I do? Please don't suggest coming in by train, as that would entail a 20 mile journey to the nearest station, then a 3 hour train trip in a packed train at vast cost, and be lucky to get there by late morning. As it is, it's only 2 hours by car. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 16, 2019 9:54:29 GMT
If there's nowhere to park your car at the Tube station you can always take the bus there. Or cycle. Or walk Khan said he wanted fewer cars on the roads and encourage more people to use public transport, cycling, walking, etc. #cunningplanmlord And when the cycle isn't practical, the bus doesn't go there and it's too far to sensibly walk? I feel for the poor so and sos living near these stations who will find that their streets get blocked up by people who would have parked in the station car parks. Not to mention the implications for the occupants of the new social housing who may "benefit" from the policy decision to ramp right down on parking provision near to stations. And, no, superteacher , I don't think that the death of the private car will be upon us for many years yet. They just meet too many needs that public transport can't sensibly deliver on. If the bus doesn't go there then we need a new bus route that does. As for the occupants of the new affordable (not social) housing if they're living next to the station with excellent public transport links they aren't going to need as much parking provision. Around half of London households do not have a car and it has been decreasing since the 1990s, private cars aren't dead but London is gradually moving towards other forms of transport. |
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Post by John Tuthill on Apr 16, 2019 10:16:55 GMT
If there's nowhere to park your car at the Tube station you can always take the bus there. Or cycle. Or walk Khan said he wanted fewer cars on the roads and encourage more people to use public transport, cycling, walking, etc. #cunningplanmlord And when the cycle isn't practical, the bus doesn't go there and it's too far to sensibly walk? I feel for the poor so and sos living near these stations who will find that their streets get blocked up by people who would have parked in the station car parks. Not to mention the implications for the occupants of the new social housing who may "benefit" from the policy decision to ramp right down on parking provision near to stations. And, no, superteacher, I don't think that the death of the private car will be upon us for many years yet. They just meet too many needs that public transport can't sensibly deliver on. Re on street parking, a few years ago our streets were rammed Mon-Fri. Then the council issued parking permits for residents. Where I live they wanted double yellow lines everywhere. I spoke at a public meeting, that this would effect the residents. Why not put down single yellow lines with parking banned between 12:00 and 13:00? No one is going to use their lunch to come back to Surbiton and move their car.My idea was taken up,but to show the "planners" thought of it, the parking ban was between 10:00 and 12:00 Re the station car park at Surbiton, can't speak for any others, it used to be free at weekends to encourage you no doubt to use the train to London. A few years ago you paid for the privalige 7 days a week.  |
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Post by stapler on Apr 16, 2019 11:13:58 GMT
And when the cycle isn't practical, the bus doesn't go there and it's too far to sensibly walk? I feel for the poor so and sos living near these stations who will find that their streets get blocked up by people who would have parked in the station car parks. Not to mention the implications for the occupants of the new social housing who may "benefit" from the policy decision to ramp right down on parking provision near to stations. And, no, superteacher , I don't think that the death of the private car will be upon us for many years yet. They just meet too many needs that public transport can't sensibly deliver on. Re on street parking, a few years ago our streets were rammed Mon-Fri. Then the council issued parking permits for residents. Where I live they wanted double yellow lines everywhere. I spoke at a public meeting, that this would effect the residents. Why not put down single yellow lines with parking banned between 12:00 and 13:00? No one is going to use their lunch to come back to Surbiton and move their car.My idea was taken up,but to show the "planners" thought of it, the parking ban was between 10:00 and 12:00 Re the station car park at Surbiton, can't speak for any others, it used to be free at weekends to encourage you no doubt to use the train to London. A few years ago you paid for the privalige 7 days a week. JT, that solution doesn't work where you have areas of terraced or other housing with no off street parking. Otherwise, you'd get a parking ticket each day. Of course, you could supply a windscreen sticker for residents' exemptio. Congratulalations, you've just invented a resident parking zone! |
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Post by Chris L on Apr 16, 2019 11:24:00 GMT
And when the cycle isn't practical, the bus doesn't go there and it's too far to sensibly walk? I feel for the poor so and sos living near these stations who will find that their streets get blocked up by people who would have parked in the station car parks. Not to mention the implications for the occupants of the new social housing who may "benefit" from the policy decision to ramp right down on parking provision near to stations. And, no, superteacher , I don't think that the death of the private car will be upon us for many years yet. They just meet too many needs that public transport can't sensibly deliver on. If the bus doesn't go there then we need a new bus route that does. As for the occupants of the new affordable (not social) housing if they're living next to the station with excellent public transport links they aren't going to need as much parking provision. Around half of London households do not have a car and it has been decreasing since the 1990s, private cars aren't dead but London is gradually moving towards other forms of transport. The car parks at stations like Epping, Cockfosters and Stanmore are used by many commuters from outside London in counties where bus services are being slashed to the bone. It is better for London that they park up at the end of the line and use the Tube than driving closer to the heart of London. |
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 16, 2019 12:02:05 GMT
There is a huge development planned in my home town of Northwood which will see blocks of flats built in the car park and the destruction of a fair chunk of station parade and the post office! It will spoil the look of the town but will get permission from the mayor - he approves what he wants and I can say that working alongside the planning sector!!
Dare I say it will end up looking like Harrow!
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Post by phil on Apr 16, 2019 14:20:20 GMT
If the bus doesn't go there then we need a new bus route that does. As for the occupants of the new affordable (not social) housing if they're living next to the station with excellent public transport links they aren't going to need as much parking provision. Around half of London households do not have a car and it has been decreasing since the 1990s, private cars aren't dead but London is gradually moving towards other forms of transport. The car parks at stations like Epping, Cockfosters and Stanmore are used by many commuters from outside London in counties where bus services are being slashed to the bone. It is better fro London that they park up at the end of the line and use the Tube than driving closer to the heart of London.
There are other car parks you know....
Watford Junction, St Albans, Potters Bar and Brentwood to name a few all have National Rail station car parks. The key difference is the and the train service into Central London costs more than TfL services (whose fares have been frozen for the past 4 years). A large chunk of Epping commuters come significant distances from Essex (or beyond) simply to save money and I imagine the same could be said is of the other stations you mention
You cannot escape the fact that TfL is answerable TO LONDONERS ONLY - not to others who happen to find their services useful.
Yes a lack of parking at tube stations may result in other problems like increased traffic or commuters parking in residential roads - but if these become a nuisance then Londoners will be able to demand action from the Mayor / TfL (which will probably mean more permit parking round stations and more charges for driving into London similar to the ULEZ)
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Post by phil on Apr 16, 2019 14:38:28 GMT
And when the cycle isn't practical, the bus doesn't go there and it's too far to sensibly walk? I feel for the poor so and sos living near these stations who will find that their streets get blocked up by people who would have parked in the station car parks. Not to mention the implications for the occupants of the new social housing who may "benefit" from the policy decision to ramp right down on parking provision near to stations. And, no, superteacher , I don't think that the death of the private car will be upon us for many years yet. They just meet too many needs that public transport can't sensibly deliver on. And when I drive from the country to Hounslow West to park, and find it built over, what do I do? Please don't suggest coming in by train, as that would entail a 20 mile journey to the nearest station, then a 3 hour train trip in a packed train at vast cost, and be lucky to get there by late morning. As it is, it's only 2 hours by car.
There are a number of National Rail stations not all that far from Hounslow with car parking (though I admit to not knowing how busy they get) - so there is nothing to stop you transferring to the train at Slough or Langley for example. The key difference is they would however cost you more and take a bit longer (thanks to lower train frequencies) than taking advantage of TfLs provision.
TfLs prime concern is those residing within their area - nobody is forcing you to use their facilities. The fact you prefer to save money and have a shorter commute is none of their business - its yours and if it means you have to pay more / travel for longer in future then, well, tough luck*.
* Note it works the other way to a degree because if their decisions means more traffic on Londons roads and less income then its tough luck to the Mayor / GLA. The only thing is they are in a better position to retaliate via residents parking zones and ULEZ / Congestion charging schemes.
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Post by Chris L on Apr 16, 2019 17:49:54 GMT
The car parks at stations like Epping, Cockfosters and Stanmore are used by many commuters from outside London in counties where bus services are being slashed to the bone. It is better fro London that they park up at the end of the line and use the Tube than driving closer to the heart of London.
There are other car parks you know....
Watford Junction, St Albans, Potters Bar and Brentwood to name a few all have National Rail station car parks. The key difference is the and the train service into Central London costs more than TfL services (whose fares have been frozen for the past 4 years). A large chunk of Epping commuters come significant distances from Essex (or beyond) simply to save money and I imagine the same could be said is of the other stations you mention
You cannot escape the fact that TfL is answerable TO LONDONERS ONLY - not to others who happen to find their services useful.
Yes a lack of parking at tube stations may result in other problems like increased traffic or commuters parking in residential roads - but if these become a nuisance then Londoners will be able to demand action from the Mayor / TfL (which will probably mean more permit parking round stations and more charges for driving into London similar to the ULEZ)
It must be remembered that businesses in London contribute as well as residents. |
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Post by stapler on Apr 16, 2019 20:47:59 GMT
TfL is not quite accountable to Londoners only, as it's obliged under its Act to run to from and within London.
However Chris L and others are quite right that Tube car parks are crammed with commuters from the shires, and this'll get worse if the TfL fares freeze lasts another four years.
I was on a Loughton train the other day at approx 1430; a chap in builder's gear with toolbox etc was phoning his mate speculating how long it'd take him home to Thetford that day. The estimate was 10 min on the train and 55 in the car, considerably faster and cheaper that train all the way...
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Post by phil on Apr 16, 2019 21:18:10 GMT
TfL is not quite accountable to Londoners only, as it's obliged under its Act to run to from and within London. People living outside and business located outside the GLA boundary do NOT:-
(i) pay taxes to the GLA / Mayor (and thus finance TfL) (ii) have the ability to vote the Mayor / GLA out of office
THAT is what I mean by accountable.
If you live in Thetford then political accountability lies with Thetford Town Council, Norfolk County Council and the MP for for South West Norfolk.
True, said MP may take up matters relating to TfL parking with the London Mayor - but it remains the fact that as the people of Thetford do not vote for the mayor / GLA, its perfectly legitimate for said Mayor / GLA to ignore the MP.
As much as it might annoy a person from Norfolk, etc the brutal truth is they have no right to expect the Mayor / GLA to pander to their needs.
That does not mean the Mayor / GLA will necessarily ignore the needs of those commuting in from Thetford - but this will only be where the needs of commuters happen to align with the Mayors / GLAs own priorities.
Obviously there is nothing to stop the Westminster based Government and the Mayor / GLA making agreements to protect the interests non-Londoners (or indeed the interest of Londoners themselves) but this in itself doesn't change the situation as regards accountability. For example while a resident of Slough may in future use a TfL operated rail service to commute into London, political accountability for said service (and the deal done between the DfT and TfL) ultimately rests with the MP for Slough / the DfT .
As things stand the Mayor / GLA have made it clear that affordable housing for Londoners, discouraging car use and plugging holes in TfLs budget are more important than providing car parks for non-Londoners to use when commuting
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Post by piccboy on Apr 16, 2019 23:35:43 GMT
A few points that I don't believe have been raised so far. If this scheme goes ahead across the entire network, what are the financial implications of the one-off sum of capital raised selling this land, versus the steady trickle of parking fees raised by these car parks?
Given that x amount of these car park users are commuters from outside London, with no parking at London Underground stations, what would be the impact on fare revenue if these commuters choice to park at a National Rail station car park and use their trains instead?
Finally, I have observed that a number of car parks across the network have track access points, for maintenance workers. What would be the impact of these points being no longer available?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 17, 2019 0:43:51 GMT
On your last point, I'm sure that schemes will be designed such that access is still available - either retained in situ or moved slightly. It might be unavailable for a time during construction though, but coordination of maintenance activities with the construction schedule should minimise any difficulties there.
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Post by bananaman on Apr 17, 2019 4:34:14 GMT
On your last point, I'm sure that schemes will be designed such that access is still available - either retained in situ or moved slightly. It might be unavailable for a time during construction though, but coordination of maintenance activities with the construction schedule should minimise any difficulties there. Don't count on it, not much consideration is given for engineering staff access. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 17, 2019 5:52:23 GMT
I was on a Loughton train the other day at approx 1430; a chap in builder's gear with toolbox etc was phoning his mate speculating how long it'd take him home to Thetford that day. The estimate was 10 min on the train and 55 in the car.. That's a bit optimistic - it's 73 miles from Loughtpn to Thetford, (65 from Epping), and Norfolk and Suffolk have zero miles of motorway between them. |
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Post by superteacher on Apr 17, 2019 6:31:00 GMT
I was on a Loughton train the other day at approx 1430; a chap in builder's gear with toolbox etc was phoning his mate speculating how long it'd take him home to Thetford that day. The estimate was 10 min on the train and 55 in the car.. That's a bit optimistic - it's 73 miles from Loughtpn to Thetford, (65 from Epping), and Norfolk and Suffolk have zero miles of motorway between them. Although Thetford is one of the easier places to access from London (M11 then A11, both motorway standard roads). |
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Post by brigham on Apr 17, 2019 7:30:56 GMT
Looks like the tradesman from Thetford will just have to bite the bullet and pay the Congestion Charge!
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 17, 2019 8:18:02 GMT
this'll get worse if the TfL fares freeze lasts another four years. Given TfL's current financial situation I suspect that the fares freeze will not be repeated and Khan doesn't need it to win in 2020 (last polling Khan 55%, Bailey 28%). |
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Post by peterc on Apr 17, 2019 9:33:43 GMT
Of course the Theford commuter was driving to a station in Essex. There is always the problem of the "democratic deficit" where the interests of London voters influence the running of rail services in the Home Counties.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 17, 2019 9:57:59 GMT
Of course the Theford commuter was driving to a station in Essex. There is always the problem of the "democratic deficit" where the interests of London voters influence the running of rail services in the Home Counties. How exactly are "the interests of London voters" effecting the running of rail services on a branch line between Cambridge and Norwich with no direct services to London? |
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Post by stapler on Apr 17, 2019 12:15:43 GMT
That's a bit optimistic - it's 73 miles from Loughtpn to Thetford, (65 from Epping), and Norfolk and Suffolk have zero miles of motorway between them. Although Thetford is one of the easier places to access from London (M11 then A11, both motorway standard roads). I got the impression of the bloke from Thetford that 65 miles in 55 minutes along the M11/A11/A14 would be well within his "horizons"; that'd be an average of 71mph. I hold no brief for him! Phil, you are of course quite right, my point was just that the mayor might be accountable through the SoS for the wider aspects of how the TFL systems fit into the wider whole, especially if he wants to take over more services like on the Southern.. Essex certainly uses/relies on TFL services more than most counties, with Brentwood/Chigwell/Loughton/Epping certainly so, and neither the county nor the district councils pays a ha'penny to Mr Khan. |
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