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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 27, 2019 18:32:07 GMT
Following an incident at Richmond this morning, I feel I should ask who, if anyone, is responsible for Tube passengers, and in particular the information given to them, at places like Richmond and Wimbledon. This morning the departure screens said the next train would leave from Platform 6 in 19 minutes. There was no train in Platform 6, but there were trains in platforms 5 and 7. None of the hordes of staff (all wearing SWR uniform) would give any information about what was going on, saying that the Tube was not their responsibility. There were no TfL staff to be seen.
The train on Platform 7 then left, completely unannounced, leaving most intending passengers behind. None of the staff saw that as being their fault, or indeed their problem. As there was still no sign of the promised train on Platform 6, everybody crammed onto the one on Platform 5, which left about ten minutes later.
I spoke to both TfL and SWR's victim support customer service lines, each saying it was nothing to do with them because it involved someone else's train / station (as the case may be).
In my opinion, regardless of what train they are intending to catch, the passengers are the responsibility of the company operating the station whilst they are on the concourse or platform, only becoming the rain operator's responsibility when they board a train, and thus SWT should have made it their business to find out why THEIR departure screens were giving out duff information, and if the source of the duff information was TfL, getting them to correct it. But since SWR (and SWT and BR before them) have always pretended that platforms 3 to 7 at Richmond (and 1-4, 9 and 10 at Wimbledon) are mere figments of our imagination, perhaps TfL should insist on having their own presence there (as for instance SWR do at Network Rail-managed Waterloo)
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Feb 27, 2019 19:43:38 GMT
At Network Rail (NR) stations the TOC presence is usually connected to revenue collection and despatch (neither of which AIUI is the responsibility of NR). IIRC Richmond is signalled by NR and it is their signalling data which feed the departure screens. If these data are incorrect I would expect it to be the responsibility of the station manager (in this case South Western Railway (SWR)) and NR to sort. Yes, SWR are not responsible for the operation of the trains, but they are responsible for 'customer care' as it is their station.
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Post by Chris M on Feb 27, 2019 20:00:35 GMT
Over on another forum it is apparently taken as a simple fact of life that the staff at Blackpool North are consistently the least helpful and least friendly on the national network. I suspect that in the London Area that title would be held by Richmond based on my experience and reports on this forum over the years.
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Post by superteacher on Feb 27, 2019 20:21:37 GMT
norbitonflyer take it to London Travelwatch. Hopefully they will do something about it. It’s a disgraceful situation. Greater Anglia staff usually give information about TFL Rail trains at somewhere like Shenfield, so perhaps SWR should learn from that example.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2019 22:14:35 GMT
At Network Rail (NR) stations the TOC presence is usually connected to revenue collection and despatch (neither of which AIUI is the responsibility of NR). IIRC Richmond is signalled by NR and it is their signalling data which feed the departure screens. If these data are incorrect I would expect it to be the responsibility of the station manager (in this case South Western Railway (SWR)) and NR to sort. Yes, SWR are not responsible for the operation of the trains, but they are responsible for 'customer care' as it is their station.
It is signalled by Network Rail.
The terminal platforms are signalled from Gunnersbury panel, housed in Richmond signal box and the SWR lines I think are still signalled from Feltham ASC, although I'm not 100% sure how long it has left
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Post by aslefshrugged on Feb 28, 2019 9:34:50 GMT
Except they aren't SWT's departure screens, they are Network Rail's screens linked to Network Rail's signal system. As far as I'm aware Network Rail passes information to the SWT control room who are supposed to pass the info on to their stations but in this case Network Rail might pass the information onto the District Line control room not SWT because its not an SWT service.
When I worked at Stratford we had a similar problem with DLR, Great Eastern and Silverlink Metro, numerous times we had to contact the other TOCs control room to get information rather than them contacting us because we were a Tube station and got left out of the loop. I'm pretty certain we didn't have a direct link with Railtrack (or Network Rail towards the end of my time).
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 28, 2019 9:47:58 GMT
Except they aren't SWT's departure screens, they are Network Rail's screens They are on an SWR station (not SWT any longer - that one slipped through in my original post*) and departure screens do appear to have different designs on different TOCs, so I have always assumed that the presentation of the data is up to the local TOC, regardless of where the data itself comes from. Old habits die hard - and SWT lasted more than 23 years: that's only two years less than the LNER, LMS etc. At Network Rail (NR) stations the TOC presence is usually connected to revenue collection and despatch. Quite so - it is very clear they don't see actually helping the clients as part of their remit. The Revenuemen are here to ensure we've paid for a service, but it's not part of their job to ensure we actually get the service we've paid for. And "despatch" are concerned with "running" a service (making sure the train runs), which is subtly distinct from "providing" a service - ensuring that the company's clients get to where they need to be at a time as close as practical to when they expected.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Feb 28, 2019 10:17:27 GMT
To be completely accurate the boards are on a Network Rail station managed and staffed by SWR.
I'm pretty certain that information on the boards comes direct from Network Rail rather than from the control room of the TOC that manages the station but certainly not from the station itself. Obviously part of the problem is there are too many layers between the NR control room running the service and the SWR staff on the stations trying to keep the passengers informed but this isn't just a National Rail problem. When there has been disruption on the Central Line there have been occasional instances at Hainault with first trains being advertised on the boards from one platform and then leaving from another, I guess when you're sat in a control room far away from the "front line" its easy to overlook passengers and the staff who have to deal with them face-to-face.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Feb 28, 2019 11:26:11 GMT
There is an added layer of complication at Richmond in that the District/North London line tracks serving platforms 3 to 7 and signalled by Richmond cabin actully belong to Network Rail's Anglia region.
The through platforms 1 & 2 are signalled by and belong to Network Rail's Southern region.
The station is of course staffed and operated by South Western Railway.
It's perhaps worth adding that District line service control have absolutely no juristiction over the Richmond (or indeed Wimbledon) branch and would therefore not be party to platform workings at Richmond (or Wimbledon).
As a driver I've always found the station staff at Richmond to be less than helpful; whether it be a blind customer that needs assistance, a soiled train that needs cleaning or perhaps someone that needs to be removed from my train like a begger or vagrant......I normally get more help from my own passengers than actual railway employees.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Feb 28, 2019 11:31:48 GMT
At Ealing Broadway (managed by GWR) there are LUL staff to assist with any problems and at Barking (managed by c2c) there are LUL staff to assist with detraining when a train reverses via the sidings. So why no LUL staff at Richmond?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Feb 28, 2019 11:47:05 GMT
There never has been LU staff Richmond.
Same situation at Wimbledon, though we do sometimes have a Duty Reliability Manager there in the peaks.
We also don't have LU staff at Upminster despite there being a train crew depot.
The detrainers at Barking are CSA grade; there is no LU station supervisor at Barking.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Feb 28, 2019 12:40:23 GMT
There are no LUL station supervisors anywhere, they were all converted into Customer Service Managers.
Barking has 10 CSA1s rostered under a mobile CSM3 who covers five stations.
Ealing Broadway has 4 Customer Service Supervisors (CSS1s), ex-SAMFs who've been regraded, under a mobile CSM.
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Post by rtt1928 on Feb 28, 2019 17:40:39 GMT
Would the situation improve if South Western Railway handed over the management of Richmond and Wimbledon stations to London Underground but retained a presence at these stations to offer information on SWR services
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Post by goldenarrow on Feb 28, 2019 19:37:49 GMT
Would the situation improve if South Western Railway handed over the management of Richmond and Wimbledon stations to London Underground but retained a presence at these stations to offer information on SWR services Not necessarily as you would just reverse the current scenario where LU passengers are catered for and National Rail passengers are left in the void. Take Harrow &Wealdstone which I think is actually one of the beter stations solely managed by LU but served by National Rail. When things go awry the pick up from staff is frustratingly slow presumably because the communication isn't there from the TOC's in the first place. The sad reality is that these stations even ones co-managed with a National Rail TOC are, in the grand scheme of the network, still minorities and there simply isn't the willpower to dedicate funding to developing bespoke training packages for stations that demand non standard guidelines working with bipartisan safety protocols simply for the benefit of the passenger. If anything, this proves how there are still gaps in London’s supposedly integrated transport network.
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Post by commuter on Mar 12, 2019 17:18:05 GMT
At Ealing Broadway (managed by GWR) there are LUL staff to assist with any problems and at Barking (managed by c2c) there are LUL staff to assist with detraining when a train reverses via the sidings. So why no LUL staff at Richmond? The rationale for providing L.U.L staff at Ealing Broadway is that the tracks and platforms are owned by L.U and operated under L.U's rules and procedures. Accordingly if there is a need to undertake operational procedures such as provide assisted dispatch or access the track to secure points, there will be trained and licensed staff on site. This is the same reason a Supervisor is on duty at Terminal 5 H/row during traffic hours. At Richmond the tracks and platforms are owned by Network Rail and operated under their rules ... LU staff would not be trained or licensed to do this therefore there is no point in providing them. Barking has station staff (CSA grade only) present for detraining at detrainment times purely because of the extended interval taken for a train operator to detrain on his own.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 12, 2019 17:59:52 GMT
...for a train operator to detrain on his own. Reminder: not all train operators are male.
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Post by commuter on Mar 12, 2019 21:08:43 GMT
Who said they were?
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 12, 2019 21:44:01 GMT
You implied it when you said "his train" rather than 'his/her train' or 'their train'.
It might not feel like a big thing, but the language we use can have a subtle influence on how people perceive a role.
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Post by brigham on Mar 13, 2019 9:13:00 GMT
There's a notion spreading rather too rapidly, even on this forum, and even among the moderators of it, that such pronouns as 'he' and 'his' specifically refer to the MALE of the species only.
Let me take this opportunity to remind people that, in conventional English, 'he'and 'his' refer to any person UNLESS or UNTIL you know differently.
Now, that's fine by me. I know that some folk think that this convention is unacceptable; that is also fine by me.
What ISN'T acceptable is the ever-more frequent interruption of the flow of discussion by people making their views on the matter known.
Perhaps a separate, sticky thread could be started to discuss grammatical preferences without derailing the ongoing discussion which is the heart of the Forum, and the reason why it exists.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Mar 13, 2019 9:43:42 GMT
I would remind everyone that we're attempting to be inclusive on here, although sometimes it's difficult. I would also remind everyone that issuing reprimands is not the domain of the general membership. If you have a problem with something you've read on District Dave's then report the post to a Mod or Administrator and we'll look at it.
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Post by londonstuff on Mar 13, 2019 9:56:52 GMT
Admin comment:
I can wholeheartedly say that the entire staff team: Mods, Admins and Consultants agree with what whistlekiller2000 and rincew1nd earlier in the thread have said. Words are important as they influence people’s opinions and actions.
Being aware of language and it not being used in a sexist way (or language relating to any other protected characteristic) is the way it’s going to stay here.
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Post by brigham on Mar 13, 2019 10:54:42 GMT
Admin comment:
I can wholeheartedly say that the entire staff team: Mods, Admins and Consultants agree with what whistlekiller2000 and rincew1nd earlier in the thread have said. Words are important as they influence people’s opinions and actions.
Being aware of language and it not being used in a sexist way (or language relating to any other protected characteristic) is the way it’s going to stay here. I wholeheartedly agree. I never use language in a 'sexist' way, and I don't intend to change my use of English to accommodate folks who erroneously try to claim otherwise.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Mar 13, 2019 11:10:09 GMT
Admin comment:
I can wholeheartedly say that the entire staff team: Mods, Admins and Consultants agree with what whistlekiller2000 and rincew1nd earlier in the thread have said. Words are important as they influence people’s opinions and actions.
Being aware of language and it not being used in a sexist way (or language relating to any other protected characteristic) is the way it’s going to stay here. I wholeheartedly agree. I never use language in a 'sexist' way, and I don't intend to change my use of English to accommodate folks who erroneously try to claim otherwise. Well, now that you're aware of what's expected of you here, there shouldn't be any further problems.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 13, 2019 11:17:47 GMT
Firstly my apologies to those using coloured ink for continuing this point. There's a notion spreading rather too rapidly, even on this forum, and even among the moderators of it, that such pronouns as 'he' and 'his' specifically refer to the MALE of the species only. Let me take this opportunity to remind people that, in conventional English, 'he'and 'his' refer to any person UNLESS or UNTIL you know differently. The great thing about the English language is that it evolves and changes as society does, otherwise we'd be asking "hwen ye vessel doth appear?" rather then "when is the bus due?". The conventions are changing, I suggest unless or until you know the gender of the person you use a neutral pronoun such as "they/their". I recommend this video published over five years ago: The above is written in my personal capacity. The below is written in my capacity as a forum Administrator: On topic please.
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Post by commuter on Mar 13, 2019 14:39:11 GMT
You implied it when you said "his train" rather than 'his/her train' or 'their train'. It might not feel like a big thing, but the language we use can have a subtle influence on how people perceive a role. 'his' is a perfectly acceptable term to describe 'person(s) unknown' just like in languages such as Spanish a mixed-gendered group of friends would be 'amigos' [whereas when referring to the singular masculine would be 'amigo' and feminine 'amiga' To provide a quote from the rail by-laws "Unless the context requires to the contrary, words importing one gender shall include the other gender."
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 13, 2019 14:50:55 GMT
You implied it when you said "his train" rather than 'his/her train' or 'their train'. It might not feel like a big thing, but the language we use can have a subtle influence on how people perceive a role. 'his' is a perfectly acceptable term to describe 'person(s) unknown' just like in languages such as Spanish a mixed-gendered group of friends would be 'amigos' [whereas when referring to the singular masculine would be 'amigo' and feminine 'amiga' To provide a quote from the rail by-laws "Unless the context requires to the contrary, words importing one gender shall include the other gender." I'm sorry Madam, forum staff have requested that we return this discussion to the topic of organisations responsible for customer care, I'm not going to reply to your point.
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Post by theblackferret on Mar 13, 2019 15:11:42 GMT
The problem is the inability of 'them' or 'they' to accept responsibility for what happens on 'their' station concourse.
If you or I accept a job/responsibility, we would hopefully accept all that it entails, not just the nice bits.
OK, I know I'm a retired Civil Servant, but if you're dealing with passengers/customers/call them what you like, they are your responsibility.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 30, 2019 9:37:34 GMT
A similar situation this morning. Arrived at Richmond to find the next eight District Line trains all shown as "cancelled". That is more than an hour's worth. No information forthcoming from the (SWR) station staff except that there was a signalling problem between Whitechapel and West Ham - so that stops trains running to Richmond?. So everyone for destinations north of the river piled onto an Overground train (only for me to discover at West Hampstead that Thameslink was having its own problems)
Anyway, by the time I reached Gunnersbury I had already passed two District Line trains going the other way - so it seems the information displayed at Richmond was "fake news" (to use the modern vernacular) and the poor SWR customer-facing staff were not being given the information they needed to do their jobs. As I have said before, it is time SWR realised that until they board someone else's train, any member of the public on their station is their responsibility. And it is time TfL realised that their trains and drivers do not disappear into some kind of "scenery break" limbo at Turnham Green Junction, and their responsibility for providing information extends to all stations they serve.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 30, 2019 19:17:57 GMT
I suspect the problem is the station staff are too removed from those who are making the decisions.
You have the District Line control room (at Hammersmith I believe) and whichever Network Rail signals desk controls Richmond talking to each other but then the message has to be passed onto SWT's control room (wherever that is) before they relay the information on to the station staff.
As I've probably mentioned before we had similar shenanigans at Stratford when us poor Station Assistants on the gateline had to ask the station control room to phone Silverlink or DLR to find out what was going on while being confronted by angry passengers.
We had it a bit easier with Great Eastern because they had staff up on platform 8 we could ask but there were times when they weren't getting info from their control room.
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Post by tjw on Sept 30, 2019 20:55:07 GMT
I suspect the problem is the station staff are too removed from those who are making the decisions. When I was working if I wanted to know what was happening, I would go an ask the signalman, the 'box was at the end of the platform. As for modern station staff, I feel sorry for them, many of them have not received the training needed to cope in times of disruption. I found one member of staff a Norwood Junction giving out a notice as to what train would depart first, sadly the station starting signals in easy view told a different story, I explained why her information was wrong, and told her how to read the signals and what they meant. Amusingly another ex-railwayman was next to me, we had a good chat on the train later! Although some of the staff at Norwood Junction have used their brains, one railwayman uses his 'phone to call up West Croydon for the (real time) departure times and train order and relays it to the tannoy! It really does not help that so many of the Passenger information screens continually give wrong or impossible (due to signalling or rule book / appendix) information, if they were books they would be in the fiction department. They have spent a fortune producing screens that are less accurate than someone on their 'phone. They could have saved a fortune by putting in free wifi and putting the departure time, and safety related information as compulsory push notifications as part of the sign up for the free wifi.
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