londoner
thinking on '73 stock
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Post by londoner on Jan 29, 2019 16:59:39 GMT
What is the specified lifetime of the S-stock and do existing drivers feel it will meet this or be poor like the central line trains? As a passenger, the only issue I ever read about was overly sensitive doors at the beginning of their introduction.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2019 21:44:06 GMT
Corrosion is starting to become a big issue I have heard.
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Jan 29, 2019 22:44:03 GMT
Corrosion is starting to become a big issue I have heard. Already to that level?! I recall somebody saying the 62ts had problems a few years after it was introduced, but that was down to the use of green timber. Surely materials science is a bit more advanced and reliable by now...
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Post by John Tuthill on Jan 30, 2019 9:19:34 GMT
Corrosion is starting to become a big issue I have heard. Already to that level?! I recall somebody saying the 62ts had problems a few years after it was introduced, but that was down to the use of green timber. Surely materials science is a bit more advanced and reliable by now... It could have been worse. When LT bought the 'MD' type bus they found rust during the PDI!
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Post by malcolmffc on Jan 30, 2019 12:21:49 GMT
Corrosion is starting to become a big issue I have heard. Unbelievable if true - some of these trains are barely 5 years old! Why do people keep buying trains from Bombadier?
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Post by countryman on Jan 30, 2019 14:11:27 GMT
Already to that level?! I recall somebody saying the 62ts had problems a few years after it was introduced, but that was down to the use of green timber. Surely materials science is a bit more advanced and reliable by now... It could have been worse. When LT bought the 'MD' type bus they found rust during the PDI! All had gone before they were 7 years old; in fact several only lasted 5 years.
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Post by t697 on Jan 30, 2019 16:05:09 GMT
Corrosion is starting to become a big issue I have heard. Structural or just replaceable components?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2019 18:09:24 GMT
There have been reports of rust in several areas, but the best one must be when the corrosion prevents the doors opening because of the swelling.
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Post by superteacher on Jan 30, 2019 20:41:38 GMT
Hope that TFL are holding Bombardier to account over this.
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towerman
My status is now now widower
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Post by towerman on Feb 1, 2019 12:11:13 GMT
It could have been worse. When LT bought the 'MD' type bus they found rust during the PDI! All had gone before they were 7 years old; in fact several only lasted 5 years. On the 62TS within 5 years the wooden window ledges were rotten & on the BR trailers the metal underneath the wooden flooring was corroding away.
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Post by t697 on Feb 1, 2019 16:57:15 GMT
I'm not entering into any comment about liabilities here, but such corrosion as there is or may be does not seem the sort of thing that leads a fleet to an early demise as some seem to imply. Rather it is the sort of thing addressed though component renewal, sometimes with improvements.
One can also note that the earliest S stock carbodies are 10 years old and some have been in service almost 8 1/2 years as I write.
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 1, 2019 20:15:46 GMT
Absolutely, if the 1992 and 1996 stocks are anything to go by issues such as these can be managed.
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a60
I will make the 8100 Class DART my new A Stock.
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Post by a60 on Feb 1, 2019 21:31:42 GMT
I'm not entering into any comment about liabilities here, but such corrosion as there is or may be does not seem the sort of thing that leads a fleet to an early demise as some seem to imply. Rather it is the sort of thing addressed though component renewal, sometimes with improvements. One can also note that the earliest S stock carbodies are 10 years old and some have been in service almost 8 1/2 years as I write. Actually, this is quite pertinent to mention as I've recently moved back to Metroland after many years away and having ridden about on the S8 Stock, in particular, the seats are starting to look a little bit careworn. Have any of the S Stock been through an overhaul process yet? If not, when can such a process be expected to begin? I'd imagine any corrosion issues can be taken care of then.
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Post by philthetube on Feb 3, 2019 5:41:37 GMT
I'm not entering into any comment about liabilities here, but such corrosion as there is or may be does not seem the sort of thing that leads a fleet to an early demise as some seem to imply. Rather it is the sort of thing addressed though component renewal, sometimes with improvements. One can also note that the earliest S stock carbodies are 10 years old and some have been in service almost 8 1/2 years as I write. Actually, this is quite pertinent to mention as I've recently moved back to Metroland after many years away and having ridden about on the S8 Stock, in particular, the seats are starting to look a little bit careworn. Have any of the S Stock been through an overhaul process yet? If not, when can such a process be expected to begin? I'd imagine any corrosion issues can be taken care of then. The seats are beginning to look worn, however apart from them everything else looks to be in good condition, from a passenger perspective, I cannot comment on the underneath.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2019 12:40:26 GMT
I'm not entering into any comment about liabilities here, but such corrosion as there is or may be does not seem the sort of thing that leads a fleet to an early demise as some seem to imply. Rather it is the sort of thing addressed though component renewal, sometimes with improvements. One can also note that the earliest S stock carbodies are 10 years old and some have been in service almost 8 1/2 years as I write. Actually, this is quite pertinent to mention as I've recently moved back to Metroland after many years away and having ridden about on the S8 Stock, in particular, the seats are starting to look a little bit careworn. Have any of the S Stock been through an overhaul process yet? If not, when can such a process be expected to begin? I'd imagine any corrosion issues can be taken care of then. I can't remember whether its 2021 or 2023 that the overhaul is pencilled in to start at Acton Works.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2019 13:46:34 GMT
They got to build the shed first it’s still a building site with just dirt and mud
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2019 16:52:54 GMT
They got to build the shed first it’s still a building site with just dirt and mud The contractors have been given a date it needs to be built by now, and work has actually started in the case of pouring concrete.
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Post by orienteer on Feb 7, 2019 17:58:21 GMT
The seat wear is in the four-seat bays, where people regularly put their feet up on the opposite seats. The flooring is starting to look grubby, but otherwise the trains seem to be wearing well.
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Post by MoreToJack on Feb 7, 2019 19:49:27 GMT
The seat wear is in the four-seat bays, where people regularly put their feet up on the opposite seats. The flooring is starting to look grubby, but otherwise the trains seem to be wearing well. There is severe, consistent wear on both the longtitudinal and transverse seating on both S7 and S8 trains, and has been for a few years now. There's clearly more to it than just feets on seats.
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Post by tjw on Feb 7, 2019 20:33:33 GMT
The seat wear is in the four-seat bays, where people regularly put their feet up on the opposite seats. The flooring is starting to look grubby, but otherwise the trains seem to be wearing well. There is severe, consistent wear on both the longtitudinal and transverse seating on both S7 and S8 trains, and has been for a few years now. There's clearly more to it than just feets on seats. +1 If you look at the wear it is not feet on seats. If you look at the moquette you will see it is quite thin... perhaps it is bus moquette rather than proper railway stuff. Then again most railway moquette these days seems quite thin, and not like the original SR 1930's stuff we used, or even the reproduced material.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 7, 2019 21:18:43 GMT
perhaps it is bus moquette rather than proper railway stuff. Why would moquette on on buses wear differently to that on trains?
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Feb 7, 2019 22:38:21 GMT
I suspect the implication is that bus moquette isn't as robust as that formerly used on trains.
If anything, because of the different construction, I suspect the wear patterns are different.
Northern have recently done away with moquette and are using a canvas-esque fabric. Whilst it is not yet showing any signs of becoming thread-bare like moquette, it is showing clearly every single stain and accumulation of dust.
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
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Post by Colin on Feb 8, 2019 2:51:16 GMT
perhaps it is bus moquette rather than proper railway stuff. Why would moquette on on buses wear differently to that on trains? Simple - buses don't see the number of passengers that trains do. IMO bus moquette is generally no different in thickness to the average train moquette; IMO its the same stuff. So actually, bus moquette lasts much longer. I've seen plenty of 20 year old buses running round with original moquette still in them. The only thing that lets bus seats down over a long period of time is the foam padding. On the specific topic of S stock moquette; again just my opinion......I think it is much thinner than the 'average' moquette. It has worn much quicker than anything else I've seen on passenger seats and I've been in the bus and train game for 25 years. Its definately not feet on seats - that wears the front edge. The wear showing on S stock is very much where one's bottom sits. I always thought it looked a bit thin. It now seems that it is too thin.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 8, 2019 7:58:14 GMT
Simple - buses don't see the number of passengers that trains do.. I don't think you can be travelling on the same buses as I do.. Surely the main reason bus moquette doesn't need to last so long is because the rest of the bus doesn't last as long either. By the time a bus has reached the end of its service life, a train is unlikely to have even had a mid-life refresh.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Feb 8, 2019 12:25:32 GMT
It is certainly true that the designed service life of a bus is generally 20 years and trains are generally around the 40 year mark, but trains are usually refurbed halfway through their life, so which ever way you choose to look at it, moquette should last about 20 years.
I'm heavily involved in the preserved bus game as an owner - I've been through 7 vehicles personally as an owner and exposed to vastly more than that at various rallies and storage locations. Honestly, bus moquette is very capable of lasting 30 years in service. Certainly the stuff that entered service 30 years ago anyway!
It obviously depends on usage though - a bus spending much of its life in an average town with some rurual workings is going see less wear than a bus in central London. Same with trains - London Underground seats will take more of a battering than seats on the national rail network that see less bottoms per journey.
The fact remains though that S stock haven't been in service for 10 years and yet their seats are already wearing away.
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Post by moogal on Feb 8, 2019 14:16:08 GMT
On the specific topic of S stock moquette; again just my opinion......I think it is much thinner than the 'average' moquette. It has worn much quicker than anything else I've seen on passenger seats and I've been in the bus and train game for 25 years. I was on a Jubilee line train yesterday evening whose Barman moquette was looking extremely tired and worn despite being installed several years later than the S8 examples, so maybe it's not unique.
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 8, 2019 19:53:38 GMT
Ridership is on the increase so that isn’t going to help either.
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Post by t697 on Feb 8, 2019 21:02:40 GMT
So here's my contribution; The worst wear on S8 seats in in the transverse seat bays and on the cushions of the seats next to the body side. Wear is both in the middle of the seats and on the fronts. Those are popular seats off peak both for normal use and for putting ones feet up on the opposite seat, front or middle. Other more worn seats tend to be on the longitudinal bays, on the seats next to the draughtscreens. These are also more popular and possibly get more changes of passenger as they are used by short distance passengers. These are of course more worn in the middle. You have to be very tall to put your feet up on the opposite one!
I'm not a full expert on moquette used, but I don't think it is flimsier than, say the original fitment on the Jubilee line 96TS trains which some may recall rucked up easily with the rather odd internal cushion elements. Most of the modern fleets' seats look pretty worn after about 6-8 years. My recollection of LT moquettes on much older trains is that many used uncut moquette or a pattern with a big proportion of uncut moquette vs. cut moquette. I also wonder whether cut moquette in those days had a slightly deeper pile and hence more to wear away.
In any case though, the modern seat designs have exchangeable moquette covers so can be renewed without a full seat rebuild. It's just that balance of ambience vs. cost that's at issue I think.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Feb 9, 2019 6:32:47 GMT
Just had a look at S7 train 21305/06, delivered June 2012, the most worn seats are next to any draft-screen, equal wear on ‘disabled’ seat or the two seats at car ends.
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Post by goldenarrow on Feb 10, 2019 22:20:10 GMT
Was out an about on the SSL's today and had a closer look at some of the worn seats which got me thinking. From what I can see, the perforations/deformations of the top layer of threading appears to be in the vertical direction. One thing that sets the S stock moquette apart from other designs is the use of individually coloured rectangles set against amongst a plain background which makes me think that the colours have been "shot in" which by default induces a readiness to shed fibers when rubbed against. Barman I believe is conventionally woven in the crosshatch fashion. I definitely think there is something in the manufacturing process of the moquette fabric that just doesn't cut the mustard with this particular design/colour palette. My evidence from a photo taken by bowroaduk, this was taken in 2010 when the moquette was virtually new and yet you can see evidence of perforations in the stitches around the coloured bars in the vertical direction.
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