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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2018 18:31:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 8:10:19 GMT
The double whammy of losing the Government grant and the fares freeze in this Mayoral term had to hit home at some point; not surprised.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Dec 12, 2018 9:20:17 GMT
Quintuple whammy.
The number of journeys has fallen across the UK especially in the off peak so fare revenues are down all over (see Virgin East Coast) although London hasn't been as bad as the rest of the country, possibly a result of the fares freeze.
Then there's the loss of revenue due to Crossrail opening late which they were banking on to at least fill some of the hole in the budget.
Also not transferring Southeastern, South West, Southern and Great Northern "Metro" services to London Overground which had been agreed with Cameron/Osborne but was scrapped by Grayling, how much would that have added to TfL's coffers?
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class411
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Post by class411 on Dec 12, 2018 9:37:09 GMT
It would be very interesting to know just why the number of journeys in London has fallen.
The answer might be complicated, and comprise a number of separate reasons, but it does seem odd.
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Post by ducatisti on Dec 12, 2018 11:27:32 GMT
Has it fallen or just not grown at the rate expected?
potential reasons that I have seen mentioned 1) recession leading to greater unemployment 2) greater levels of flexible/home working 3) drop in tourism 4) increase in use of uber and the like
Other issues - what do borisbikes count as? has the double-bus thing reduced the number of recorded journeys? How is the number of journeys calculated? are there methodology flaws in it? (eg I have a gold card, I'll only tap at some interchanges (within the scope of my zones/modes of transport) if I need to go through a barrier, does that change the number of journeys counted) Overcrowding could, paradoxically, reduce the number of journeys recorded - what happens when they open the gates to allow crush to disperse? Under-staffing - if "honesty readers" at outlying stations are ignored by people when there are no staff there, and staff hours/presence are reduced, will the number of recorded journeys drop?
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Post by phil on Dec 12, 2018 12:26:00 GMT
Also not transferring Southeastern, South West, Southern and Great Northern "Metro" services to London Overground which had been agreed with Cameron/Osborne but was scrapped by Grayling, how much would that have added to TfL's coffers?
It would have cost TfL MUCH more than they got in revenue to bring said services up to 'Overground' standards - look at how much they are having to fork out on the Chingford / Endfield / Chesunt services they took over from GA.
Having set the bar high when they took over the North London lines users would expect heavy investment in new trains and upgraded stations - not simply a new livery on the 455s....
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Post by aslefshrugged on Dec 12, 2018 12:42:37 GMT
TfL doesn't invest in rolling stock on London Overground, currently its leased by Arriva Rail London from Angel Trains, Eversholt Rail Group or QW Rail Leasing. There was a business case for the takeover published somewhere, I doubt TfL would have been pushing for it unless they were 99.9% sure it would generate revenue.
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Post by jeremy on Dec 12, 2018 14:22:47 GMT
potential reasons that I have seen mentioned 1) recession leading to greater unemployment ?? Employment higher than it has ever been, Unemployment at lows not seen for many years. Which two quarters has growth turned into decline or have you a new definition of recession. Whatever the reasons I think you need to look further than item 1.
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paulsw2
My Train Runs For Those Who Wait Not Wait For Those That Run
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Post by paulsw2 on Dec 12, 2018 14:31:17 GMT
A potential reason for fewer journeys being made is a drop in many peoples disposable income so trips out are scaled back
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Post by brigham on Dec 12, 2018 14:40:27 GMT
The long-running series of disruptions will not have helped.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Dec 12, 2018 14:46:39 GMT
Passenger numbers have remained high during the morning and evening peaks, the drop has been in off peak and weekend travel. This has been attributed to various factors, a drop in the level of wages compared to prices meaning that people have less disposable income so are staying in rather than going out and the rise in online sales leading to a decline in people going out shopping.
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Post by snoggle on Dec 12, 2018 17:08:59 GMT
It would be very interesting to know just why the number of journeys in London has fallen. The answer might be complicated, and comprise a number of separate reasons, but it does seem odd. Officially TfL don't know for certain why trip rates have fallen. By that they mean they have not establised a clear causal relationship in the many data sets they look at. This is from the Travel in London reports. The new one is now out but there was a short summary in recent board papers. content.tfl.gov.uk/travel-in-london-report-11.pdfMy mad musings cover some of what others have said. - less discretionary income, - change in employment nature / location (home working / flexible work locations), - online shopping / home delivery, - modal transfer, - families moving out of London, - changes to shopping habits - more localised, more frequent trips but smaller shopping bought each time. Can be done by walking. - pub / restaurant closures / take away food delivered to homes. Also declining public transport performance - esp buses. Some of that loss on the buses will have gone to the tube but some has gone to cycling, walking, uber or private cars. My use of local buses is vastly lower than it used to be - partly because some trips are dreadfully slow and services are unreliable. Other people will have deserted the rail network because of strikes and ongoing disruption. It seems from the very latest patronage numbers that the tube is holding up OK with peaks still busy. Buses are not doing well and the latest business plan forecasts continued decline in usage levels. TfL have, though, abandoned last year's plan for another 20m kms of cuts to services. There will still be some more cutbacks but nowhere near as bad as projected. Looks to me as if political pressure from City Hall has forced that change. Overground, Tram and DLR are bumping along broadly where they were last year - that's a reversal of past growth trends but at least patronage is not falling. TfL Rail is higher than last year - that's driven partly by fewer closures on the Shenfield route plus the addition of the line to Paddington in the numbers.
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Post by superteacher on Dec 12, 2018 20:00:17 GMT
They could probably reduce the off peak service levels slightly which would help not only with saving money, but giving some of the rolling stock a little more breathing space. As aslefshrugged is only too aware, the 1992 stock on the Central is being run into the ground with rhe level of service being operated.
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Post by snoggle on Dec 12, 2018 23:37:57 GMT
They could probably reduce the off peak service levels slightly which would help not only with saving money, but giving some of the rolling stock a little more breathing space. As aslefshrugged is only too aware, the 1992 stock on the Central is being run into the ground with rhe level of service being operated. I am very surprised they have not done this. There is obvious scope to trim some tube services to save money and, as you say, ease pressure on some fleets. I suspect they're a bit terrified that a cut would lead to less revenue. There are no plans that I can detect in the new business plan numbers for any cut to total LU kilometrage - there is no break down by line. However when compared to last year's plan there is a reduction in future levels so if there were plans to expand Tube kilometrage these have been pulled back somewhat. For example in 2022-23 the new total kilometrage is 4m kms lower than the old one.
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Post by routew15 on Dec 13, 2018 4:11:21 GMT
They could probably reduce the off peak service levels slightly which would help not only with saving money, but giving some of the rolling stock a little more breathing space. As aslefshrugged is only too aware, the 1992 stock on the Central is being run into the ground with rhe level of service being operated. Reducing the night tube service on the Piccadilly Line to 3tph and Central Line to 4tph (2tph - Ealing Broadway - Hainault and 2tph White City - Loughton), may also help in reducing rolling stock requirement.
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Post by ducatisti on Dec 13, 2018 10:55:35 GMT
potential reasons that I have seen mentioned 1) recession leading to greater unemployment ?? Employment higher than it has ever been, Unemployment at lows not seen for many years. Which two quarters has growth turned into decline or have you a new definition of recession. Whatever the reasons I think you need to look further than item 1. Last formal recession 2009. but "However, the 2010s saw four separate periods of Quarter on Quarter fall in growth: 2010 Q4 (-0.4); 2011 Q4 (-0.1); 2012 Q2 (-0.5); and 2012 Q4 (-0.2).[20] Effects of this recession have been lasting into the early-mid 2010s. " en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions_in_the_United_KingdomEmployment numbers is another shibboleth - the ONS definition of employed is "The number of people in employment in the UK is measured by the Labour Force Survey (LFS) and consists of people aged 16 and over who did one hour or more of paid work per week (as an employee or self-employed), those who had a job that they were temporarily away from, those on government-supported training and employment programmes, and those doing unpaid family work. Employment levels and rates are published each month in the labour market statistical bulletin" www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/methodologies/aguidetolabourmarketstatisticsWage growth is also massively affected by a decade of non-growth and inflation www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45875599"The fact that 3.1% is the biggest pay rise since February 2009 says more about how weak pay growth has been in the last decade than how strong it has been in the past year. Strip out the effect of inflation (as measured by the Consumer Prices Index) and you get pay growth of just 0.6%. Then look back at the last decade, the worst decade for living standards in 200 years. If you're a half-full person, well we're up by about £25 per week on average since the squeeze on living standards was at its tightest back in 2014. But if you're half-empty, we're still earning about £20 a week less than we did 10 years ago when the global financial crisis struck." It may not be a formal recession, but wages and growth (and possibly most importantly wage security) have taken an absolute battering when looked at in terms of the money in the pocket of the person who will take public transport. Now look at rental rises link
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Post by toby on Dec 13, 2018 12:31:18 GMT
From the second comment on news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18638064 which has an interesting discussion on American government project managing. Where should the in-house/contractor division line be? Even harder to see it with the external companies like Crossrail Ltd.
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Post by ducatisti on Dec 13, 2018 13:33:03 GMT
I think the flip-side of that is greater transparency as to what things cost - the other end of the scale to some of eg the (UK) Southern Railway's creative accounting to pay for electrification. We now know much more what things cost because someone is sending a bill for them.
If you think of all the projects that have overrun in the past, how much of the cost of eg prelims (ie site costs) were just absorbed by departmental budgets/governments (a lot of big UK infrastructure projects in the thirties were funded by government loans/grants for unemployment relief). And don't forget how many projects just plain went bust.
Crossrail is also super-expensive because it's all last man in tunnelling. When the early tubes went in, there was very little for them to hit. I'd be interested to compare the cost/mile for Crossrail vs cost/mile of the last two miles of whatever was the last project to go into Bank
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Post by toby on Dec 13, 2018 17:59:02 GMT
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Dec 13, 2018 18:53:55 GMT
A couple of reasons for loss of patronage, maybe the amount of tube closures.
Journeys on rail replacement buses are not counted as there's no requirement for passengers to tap in on the buses. TfL seem to be providing them to the travelling public for free and spend an awful lot on supervising such services.
The vast number of people on zero hours contracts. As the survey above says, anyone id deemed to be in employment if they work one hour a week. Anyone working one hour a week is unlikely to use a bus or tube for that amount of time. My zero-hours contract means I only work weekends and at times where public transport is not available, so I could never use it anyway.
What is the cost of free travel for the yoof of London and pensioners and anyone else who qualifies for free travel? Who pays TfL for that?
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Post by snoggle on Dec 13, 2018 20:56:08 GMT
What is the cost of free travel for the yoof of London and pensioners and anyone else who qualifies for free travel? Who pays TfL for that? The London Boroughs, through the London Councils umbrella body, fund the Freedom Pass for people past the official retirement age, the blind and disabled. The settlement numbers and borough level allocations can usually be found by having a dig round on the London Councils website. The total cost is over £200m a year and most of the revenue foregone is on the bus network. All the other concessions - 60+ Pass, child / student, veterans, income support, apprentices - are funded by TfL. Not sure how things work for railcard discounts. It's long while since I did a FOI for the cost of each of these concessions but it was tens of millions of pounds for the TfL funded ones. The most expensive is the 60+ pass because more and more people are becoming eligible and the state retirement age is rolling backwards meaning more people will keep and use the 60+ pass for longer. The problem now with these concessions, nice as they are, is that the cost may be unsustainable if the user population grows quickly. Ironically the fares freeze keeps the "revenue foregone" element relatively stable because most fares (except TOC ones) haven't risen.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Dec 14, 2018 7:34:30 GMT
What is the cost of free travel for the yoof of London and pensioners and anyone else who qualifies for free travel? Who pays TfL for that? Free travel doesn't actually cost anything as the buses and trains would be running anyway. You could argue that charging pensioners and the rest could create extra revenue but its likely that people would make fewer journeys if their free travel was withdrawn. Its like the erroneous argument that free travel for staff and dependents costs TfL the equivalent of a Zone 1-6 Annual Travelcard, I use my Staff Pass mostly to travel within Zones 3, 4 and 5 but most working days I only use it on two single bus journeys to work and back again.
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Post by 35b on Dec 14, 2018 8:56:14 GMT
What is the cost of free travel for the yoof of London and pensioners and anyone else who qualifies for free travel? Who pays TfL for that? Free travel doesn't actually cost anything as the buses and trains would be running anyway. You could argue that charging pensioners and the rest could create extra revenue but its likely that people would make fewer journeys if their free travel was withdrawn. Its like the erroneous argument that free travel for staff and dependents costs TfL the equivalent of a Zone 1-6 Annual Travelcard, I use my Staff Pass mostly to travel within Zones 3, 4 and 5 but most working days I only use it on two single bus journeys to work and back again. You assume that the free travel is only on the margins of the service that would be provided anyway. Evidence from outside London for the free bus travel for pensioners (sorry, I forget the scheme name), is that the free travel both distorts demand and is resulting in a net cost to operators by depriving them of fares revenue from existing travellers and, in some places, giving them excess demand not funded by the scheme and which reduces the appeal to ordinary fare payers. This is leading, in places, to the withdrawal of services. The answer on the cost of provision, as with the value of it to beneficiaries, is that it depends on circumstances, and can’t be assumed to be entirely neutral.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Dec 14, 2018 9:08:14 GMT
In London the fares revenue from buses, Tubes, and other TfL services goes to TfL not the operators, the only area I imagine where free travel could possibly deprive operators of fares revenue would be on National Rail services within Zone 6 during the morning and evening peaks.
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Post by 35b on Dec 14, 2018 9:27:12 GMT
In London the fares revenue from buses, Tubes, and other TfL services goes to TfL not the operators, the only area I imagine where free travel could possibly deprive operators of fares revenue would be on National Rail services within Zone 6 during the morning and evening peaks. An interesting clarification, but not one that changes the underlying point - the use of free passes may result in otherwise paid for journeys being provided free of charge. Whether that is a cost to the operator or TfL is irrelevant to that underlying question of whether the provision of free travel incurs a cost. The scale, challenges and consequences of that may vary between here in rural Lincolnshire, TfL, or the tourist hotspots of the Lake District or Cornwall, but the issues of direct and opportunity cost remain. How those issues are dealt with is primarily political; ignoring them as irrelevant or non-existent will not prevent them being an issue but may make finding a political consensus on action harder.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Dec 14, 2018 9:54:09 GMT
"the use of free passes may result in otherwise paid for journeys being provided free of charge".
Precisely, it is potential revenue that could be generated by charging a fare rather than an actual cost to the provider but that assumes that the journey would be made if free travel were not available. There is always the possibility that people with free travel would make less journeys by public transport if the free travel were withdrawn rather than paying a fare. The result would be another empty seat on an off peak service.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 14, 2018 10:02:32 GMT
the only area I imagine where free travel could possibly deprive operators of fares revenue would be on National Rail services within Zone 6 during the morning and evening peaks. Most NR operators don't accept Over-60s passes during the morning peak. As for revenue loss: there are a lot of over-sixties still working. And some of them us will choose a non-TOC route, even if it's slightly longer, if it means they can avoid paying for a season ticket. That means the passenger count on the TOC, on which revenue sharing is based, is lower.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Dec 14, 2018 10:11:34 GMT
I wonder if there are any figures for use of Freedom Passes during the peaks. It used to be different in my days on the ticket barriers, Pensioner Freedom Passes couldn't get in until 09:30 although at Stratford it was 09:25 to allow the "Twerlies" time to get up to Platform 8 to catch the 09:31 to Shenfield (or something like that).
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class411
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Post by class411 on Dec 14, 2018 11:18:18 GMT
Looking above, there is much talk about 'free' journeys.
Is it not the case that (apart from work related entitlements) the council providing the pass pays the operator (train or buss) for the journey?
In which case the passes would be highly beneficial to the various providers.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Dec 14, 2018 14:44:38 GMT
From the London Councils Freedom Pass Handbook (January 2013) I have discovered that:-
The London boroughs get a government grant for the Freedom Pass although travel before 9:30am on weekdays is funded TfL and amounts to 5% of the total cost of Freedom Pass scheme.
In 2013/14 TfL received £309.4m from London Councils of which £231m was for buses, £68m for Underground, £3.97m for trams, £2.6m for DLR and £3.6m for London Overground. The TOCs received £19.95m.
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