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Post by 35b on Aug 30, 2020 13:21:38 GMT
I absolutely agree, a strike would not be desirable, what we want is for management to negotiate but as with so many disputes in the past the only way to get them to the table seems to be balloting for strike action. If that's being "bullish" then so be it but if management refuse to make any commitments then what alternative do we have? Once the ballot result is announced it will be valid for six months which should cover us through to March 2021; we can wait. Perhaps going into problem solving mode, working with management to resolve the issues and without preconditions? |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 30, 2020 13:25:28 GMT
From my recollections of proposed railway strikes the things the unions (and presumably their members) want are usually: 1) That management honour current rules, agreements and accepted working practice. 2) That management do not make changes to extant rules, agreements, and accepted working practices without proper negotiations with the workforce. Obviously commie rabble. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 30, 2020 13:29:36 GMT
I absolutely agree, a strike would not be desirable, what we want is for management to negotiate but as with so many disputes in the past the only way to get them to the table seems to be balloting for strike action. If that's being "bullish" then so be it but if management refuse to make any commitments then what alternative do we have? Once the ballot result is announced it will be valid for six months which should cover us through to March 2021; we can wait. Perhaps going into problem solving mode, working with management to resolve the issues and without preconditions? Isn't that exactly what aslefshrugged said they wanted? But the management won't come to the table without pressure from the workforce. Virtually every time we have a 'possible strike situation' it seems to be because the management want to rule by diktat rather than behave like grownups and agreeing changes with those affected. |
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Post by North End on Aug 30, 2020 17:59:31 GMT
Perhaps going into problem solving mode, working with management to resolve the issues and without preconditions? Isn't that exactly what aslefshrugged said they wanted? But the management won't come to the table without pressure from the workforce. Virtually every time we have a 'possible strike situation' it seems to be because the management want to rule by diktat rather than behave like grownups and agreeing changes with those affected. There have been some management changes at LU over the last year or so. Let’s hope this has a positive influence on things. It certainly can’t be worse than the bull-in-a-china-shop mentality the last few years have seen. |
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Post by brigham on Aug 30, 2020 18:35:51 GMT
I'm also rather pleased to hear that a majority of union MEMBERS is needed to call a strike. The days when the likes of Arthur Scargill had ten thousand votes, or when ten men can be a 'majority' because everyone else went to the pub instead, are thankfully over.
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Post by 35b on Aug 30, 2020 19:03:18 GMT
Perhaps going into problem solving mode, working with management to resolve the issues and without preconditions? Isn't that exactly what aslefshrugged said they wanted? But the management won't come to the table without pressure from the workforce. Virtually every time we have a 'possible strike situation' it seems to be because the management want to rule by diktat rather than behave like grownups and agreeing changes with those affected. Possibly, and I ignore neither the reality of the phenomenon of macho management nor the role of history. However, I stand by my view that it takes two to tango, and that the conditioned reflexes on display here need to be put in the dustbin of history. |
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Post by Chris M on Aug 30, 2020 19:09:18 GMT
I'm also rather pleased to hear that a majority of union MEMBERS is needed to call a strike. The days when the likes of Arthur Scargill had ten thousand votes, or when ten men can be a 'majority' because everyone else went to the pub instead, are thankfully over. Technically what is needed is a majority of those balloted. This allows for strikes where issues affect only one location as it would be ridiculous to require the votes of people working on ferries in the Shetland Islands regarding a dispute on London Underground. I presume there are rules about how the people balloted are selected to stop it being only the union boss and a handful of mates, but I don't know what they are and this is also veering into a discussion of general union law (which while interesting is something for a different thread). |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Aug 30, 2020 21:09:19 GMT
The requirement is for ballot papers to sent to members who the union's records show are working in the affected grade(s) at the affected location(s). This is why the unions send out periodic reminders to check your membership information is up to date, because if there is a discrepancy and you get a ballot paper in error the employer can use it to get the vote nullified in court.
The situation gets more complicated when there are people (like me) who have a contract saying their normal work location is x, but because of the cost centre or organisational structure they are in, they are considered working for an organisation based at y for HR purposes.
And now back to the core subject please...
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 31, 2020 3:13:59 GMT
Isn't that exactly what aslefshrugged said they wanted? But the management won't come to the table without pressure from the workforce. Virtually every time we have a 'possible strike situation' it seems to be because the management want to rule by diktat rather than behave like grownups and agreeing changes with those affected. Possibly, and I ignore neither the reality of the phenomenon of macho management nor the role of history. However, I stand by my view that it takes two to tango, and that the conditioned reflexes on display here need to be put in the dustbin of history. If it takes two to tango then the unions are out on the dancefloor on their own waiting for management to put its dancing shoes on. The union has been asking for reassurances since the bailout was announced so by the time the ballot result is announced that will be three months of management refusal to engage. How long are we supposed to wait before resorting to "conditioned reflexes"? 30 years ago when I was a commuter I probably would have shared your view, 23 years of working on the Tube has left me with an entirely different perspective. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 31, 2020 3:21:07 GMT
Isn't that exactly what aslefshrugged said they wanted? But the management won't come to the table without pressure from the workforce. Virtually every time we have a 'possible strike situation' it seems to be because the management want to rule by diktat rather than behave like grownups and agreeing changes with those affected. There have been some management changes at LU over the last year or so. Let’s hope this has a positive influence on things. It certainly can’t be worse than the bull-in-a-china-shop mentality the last few years have seen. Sadly the fact that both unions are about to declare a dispute suggests that the current crop of senior managers are just as obstinate, uncooperative and confrontational as those they have replaced |
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 31, 2020 23:20:39 GMT
Hmm, I am most displeased by all this.
At a time when the country is in a dire financial situation I hope this is resolved before the government is given an opportunity to save future expenditure (and instead reduce the national debt) by pulling all financial investment (etc) in the system.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 1, 2020 7:34:50 GMT
Hmm, I am most displeased by all this. At a time when the country is in a dire financial situation I hope this is resolved before the government is given an opportunity to save future expenditure (and instead reduce the national debt) by pulling all financial investment (etc) in the system. I don't think that would work for 'the government'. Although people will blame TfL or staff/unions in the short term, if the capitol does not have a transport system that is 'fit for purpose', it is 'the government' that will be held responsible over the longer term. It's true they got away with under-investment for many years in the past, but that was before governments started trying to micro-manage anything they could. If, in future, the underground becomes seriously unfit for purpose, and the government try and blame TfL, people will just say: "Well, why have you not done something about TfL (and it's governance)?" |
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North End
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Post by North End on Sept 1, 2020 13:22:48 GMT
There have been some management changes at LU over the last year or so. Let’s hope this has a positive influence on things. It certainly can’t be worse than the bull-in-a-china-shop mentality the last few years have seen. Sadly the fact that both unions are about to declare a dispute suggests that the current crop of senior managers are just as obstinate, uncooperative and confrontational as those they have replaced Early days yet. To be fair the current management will have their hands tied in a way probably never seen before. Not saying you’re not right, however we will have to see how the next few months pan out. Personally I think threats of strike action are a little premature at this point, especially with little evidence of the commuter peaks returning at the moment. Certainly the comms coming out of the current senior team aren’t quite as belligerent as that from their predecessors. |
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Post by nig on Sept 1, 2020 13:54:45 GMT
Sadly the fact that both unions are about to declare a dispute suggests that the current crop of senior managers are just as obstinate, uncooperative and confrontational as those they have replaced Early days yet. To be fair the current management will have their hands tied in a way probably never seen before. Not saying you’re not right, however we will have to see how the next few months pan out. Personally I think threats of strike action are a little premature at this point, especially with little evidence of the commuter peaks returning at the moment. Certainly the comms coming out of the current senior team aren’t quite as belligerent as that from their predecessors. It's not a threat of stile action is the union's being being prepared being able to negotiate better being able to take action as a last resort A strike ballot takes about 2 months from when they decide to ballot till they can strike and because it's the whole combine they can take action over local issues . Say for instance bakerloo line took away tea points next week it would take 2 months before any effective way of getting them back and then it could only be a local vote Then they did something else on northern line again another 2 months . With this strike ballot they can give 2 weeks notice for industrial action |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 8, 2020 23:47:17 GMT
On a bit of a tangent but what is happening with RMT
General Secretary Mick Cash (moderate Labour member, ex-signaller on the WCML) went sick and Senior Deputy Secretary John Lynch was appointed acting Gen Sec.
John Lynch (a bit more like Unkle Bob, ex-LU Station Supervisor) has now quit.
Junior Deputy Secretary Steve Hadley (left of Unkle Bob, like Bob ex-LU P-way but unlike Bob grammar school educated and a graduate of London Uni) has been appointed acting Gen Sec despite being suspended from the union in April because he said he'd have a party if Boris died of Covid.
Soooooo glad I'm ASLEF
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Sept 9, 2020 18:28:16 GMT
On a bit of a tangent but what is happening with RMT
Let's keep to the subject at hand and not use this for airing any inter-union rivalries, it's bad enough in the workplace.
Future instances where members of one union make negative comments about another may be considered in breach of Rule 3 in a similar manner to expressing political opinion.For the record, Mr Hedley came from Signals, not P/Way - I know a number of people who were involved in his training. |
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Post by 35b on Sept 9, 2020 21:19:12 GMT
On a bit of a tangent but what is happening with RMT
Let's keep to the subject at hand and not use this for airing any inter-union rivalries, it's bad enough in the workplace.
Future instances where members of one union make negative comments about another may be considered in breach of Rule 3 in a similar manner to expressing political opinion.For the record, Mr Hedley came from Signals, not P/Way - I know a number of people who were involved in his training. I have seen an online list from John Lynch which is frank about why he is off work, and points to serious issues within the RMT NEC. This non-member finds it extremely difficult to believe that, given his own disciplinary issues over bullying and the claims by John Lynch, Steve Hadley has been elevated to cover the GS role pro tem. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 17, 2020 15:34:27 GMT
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Post by revupminster on Sept 17, 2020 18:45:29 GMT
95% of what? 100....1000....2000. They give no figures in that link. Even the government never gets 95% except maybe Belarus. |
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Post by philthetube on Sept 17, 2020 18:53:29 GMT
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 17, 2020 19:18:17 GMT
95% of what? 100....1000....2000. They give no figures in that link. Even the government never gets 95% except maybe Belarus. Votes cast in the ballot as a % of individuals who were entitled to vote 74.5% Question: Are you prepared to take part in industrial action consisting of a strike? Yes: 95.2% No: 4.8% “Yes” votes as a % of individuals who were entitled to vote 70.9% |
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Post by Chris M on Sept 17, 2020 19:25:22 GMT
According to that link 75% voted, and the vote in favour was just over 70% of those eligible to vote. It doesn't give numbers of people though.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 17, 2020 19:49:22 GMT
95% of what? 100....1000....2000. They give no figures in that link. Even the government never gets 95% except maybe Belarus. Votes cast in the ballot as a % of individuals who were entitled to vote 74.5% Question: Are you prepared to take part in industrial action consisting of a strike? Yes: 95.2% No: 4.8% “Yes” votes as a % of individuals who were entitled to vote 70.9% According to that link 75% voted, and the vote in favour was just over 70% of those eligible to vote. It doesn't give numbers of people though. The result link quoted was for the March 2020 ballot, not the recent September 2020. |
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Post by nig on Sept 17, 2020 22:20:14 GMT
Votes cast in the ballot as a % of individuals who were entitled to vote 74.5% Question: Are you prepared to take part in industrial action consisting of a strike? Yes: 95.2% No: 4.8% “Yes” votes as a % of individuals who were entitled to vote 70.9% According to that link 75% voted, and the vote in favour was just over 70% of those eligible to vote. It doesn't give numbers of people though. The result link quoted was for the March 2020 ballot, not the recent September 2020. The link aslefshrugged gave www.aslefdistrict8.org/post/95-yes-vote-to-protect-agreementsIs for Septembers vote Numbers don't really matter as long as the percentage threshold is made and it was 70 percent of eligible drivers voted and out of those 95 percenters voted yes |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 17, 2020 23:56:46 GMT
95% of what? 100....1000....2000. They give no figures in that link. Even the government never gets 95% except maybe Belarus. Under the current legislation any industrial action needs the support of 51% of those eligible to vote, if the turnout was 70.9% as reported then 67.5% of all eligible voters supported strike action. Compare that to the 29.3% who voted for the current Tory government at the last General Election or the 37.4% who voted to leave the EU. If we don't have a mandate t for industrial action then who has support for anything? Ain't democracy great! |
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Post by revupminster on Sept 18, 2020 5:59:59 GMT
So how many members voted yes? How many government employees, because that's what they are in a nationalised industry. I bet it's a fraction of the pit workers in the 1970's.
For example say 2000 members' 70% voted = 1400, 95% yes = 1330.
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Post by brigham on Sept 18, 2020 7:31:12 GMT
So how many members voted yes? How many government employees, because that's what they are in a nationalised industry. I bet it's a fraction of the pit workers in the 1970's. For example say 2000 members' 70% voted = 1400, 95% yes = 1330. You can't compare it with the miners. Arthur Scargill had ten thousand votes to himself! |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 18, 2020 7:42:16 GMT
So how many members voted yes? How many government employees, because that's what they are in a nationalised industry. I bet it's a fraction of the pit workers in the 1970's. For example say 2000 members' 70% voted = 1400, 95% yes = 1330. The number per se is irrelevant. |
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Post by nig on Sept 18, 2020 11:57:02 GMT
So how many members voted yes? How many government employees, because that's what they are in a nationalised industry. I bet it's a fraction of the pit workers in the 1970's. For example say 2000 members' 70% voted = 1400, 95% yes = 1330. why do you need to know the numbers its completely irrelevant just more drivers that are Aslef members voted yes than Aslef drivers that didn't vote or voted no that's how voting works well of course it wont be as many as pit workers as there was a lot more of them then underground drivers |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Sept 18, 2020 12:20:34 GMT
So how many members voted yes? How many government employees, because that's what they are in a nationalised industry. I bet it's a fraction of the pit workers in the 1970's. For example say 2000 members' 70% voted = 1400, 95% yes = 1330. why do you need to know the numbers its completely irrelevant just more drivers that are Aslef members voted yes than Aslef drivers that didn't vote or voted no that's how voting works well of course it wont be as many as pit workers as there was a lot more of them then underground drivers Back in the 70s and 80s voting was done with a show of hands at meetings, the count (if any) was done by the union officals with paper ballots only used if there wasn't a clear majority. Since the Employment Act 1990 all ballots are postal and have to be done through a third party (in this case Civica Election Services). |
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