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Post by movingmillion on Aug 27, 2018 12:40:12 GMT
Hello all, Do any of you think that there is any chance for Metro-Cammel to return?
<<rincew1nd: Spelling corrected in thread title (cammel, cammell).>>
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class411
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Post by class411 on Aug 27, 2018 13:06:50 GMT
Presumably, if they did, it would be in name only.
Rather like Bush and Pye TV's and suchlike.
It seems unlikely, though, as the people responsible for railway contracts are not likely to be influenced by the vague feeling that a product has a good 'name', which is the normal purpose for recycling names.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 27, 2018 14:33:19 GMT
With Bombardier in Derby, Hitachi in Newton Aycliffe and Siemens opening up a new factory in Goole would there be enough demand for a fourth train builder in the UK?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 27, 2018 16:23:50 GMT
What was MetroCammell is now part of Alstom, which made no trains for the British market since the very early days of privatisation (classes 175, 180, 334, 390, 458, 460), none of which had any follow-on orders except for lengthening the Pendolinos and adding four new units to the fleet - the extra vehicles were built in Italy as Washwood Heath closed in 2004 after the original Pendolino fleet was built). Alstom are now in merger talks with Siemens (subject to regulatory agreement). Of course there is the possibility that the Goole factory will revive the name, but I doubt it somehow.
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Post by movingmillion on Aug 27, 2018 17:29:07 GMT
I presume then in that case there is no chance for a return to the Metro-Cammel design for trains any time soon/ever?
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Aug 27, 2018 18:05:28 GMT
I presume then in that case there is no chance for a return to the Metro-Cammel design for trains any time soon/ever? Metro Cammel was absorbed by Alstrom in 1989 and closed down altogether in 2005 so I'd doubt it very much.
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Post by movingmillion on Aug 27, 2018 18:07:03 GMT
Would there be any chance of another company, not copying but perhaps emulating, the general design by MC?
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Aug 27, 2018 18:11:34 GMT
Would there be any chance of another company, not copying but perhaps emulating, the general design by MC? Would there be any point in emulating a design team that ceased to exist (to all intents and puposes) almost 30 years ago when things have moved so far ahead now? It'd be like asking British Leyland to design the next Ford Focus.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 27, 2018 18:57:10 GMT
Would there be any chance of another company, not copying but perhaps emulating, the general design by MC? Metro-Cammell built a huge variety of rolling stock, including such different designs as the Brighton Belle and Blue Pullman, the Class 156 Super Sprinter, the Mark 4 InterCity225 coaches, and the Glasgow Subway "clockwork orange" cars. Also most Tube stock from 1938 to 1996.
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Post by MoreToJack on Aug 27, 2018 19:39:09 GMT
Personally it would be quite nice if we didn't emulate designs from before my lifetime. Hardly gives off the idea of progressive and modern!
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Post by John Tuthill on Aug 27, 2018 20:31:56 GMT
Would there be any chance of another company, not copying but perhaps emulating, the general design by MC? Metro-Cammell built a huge variety of rolling stock, including such different designs as the Brighton Belle and Blue Pullman, the Class 156 Super Sprinter, the Mark 4 InterCity225 coaches, and the Glasgow Subway "clockwork orange" cars. Also most Tube stock from 1938 to 1996. Not forgetting the R49 stock as well
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 28, 2018 8:41:13 GMT
With Bombardier in Derby, Hitachi in Newton Aycliffe and Siemens opening up a new factory in Goole would there be enough demand for a fourth train builder in the UK? Isn't CAF opening a plant in south Wales?
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Post by cudsn15 on Aug 28, 2018 9:22:51 GMT
I'm not sure I really understand the nature of the question - Even if "Metro-cammell" came back - whatever made the old company what it was wouldn't be there - the designers, the innovators the workers. It would be completely new - so why call it "Metro-Cammell"? Train design has advanced beyond recognition from 20-40 years ago.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Aug 28, 2018 9:25:44 GMT
With Bombardier in Derby, Hitachi in Newton Aycliffe and Siemens opening up a new factory in Goole would there be enough demand for a fourth train builder in the UK? Isn't CAF opening a plant in south Wales? Apparently in Newport and it should start production in "Autumn 2018" on 77 DMUs for the new Keolis/Amey Wales franchise. Hey, its Wales, the carrier pigeon must have got lost somewhere along the M4.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 28, 2018 9:55:55 GMT
Isn't CAF opening a plant in south Wales? Apparently in Newport and it should start production in "Autumn 2018" on 77 DMUs for the new Keolis/Amey Wales franchise. Hey, its Wales, the carrier pigeon must have got lost somewhere along the M4. So in answer to your original question, 'would there be demand for a 4th builder?' Yes there would! Would there be demand for a 5th builder though? I doubt it.
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Post by domh245 on Aug 28, 2018 16:34:32 GMT
Apparently in Newport and it should start production in "Autumn 2018" on 77 DMUs for the new Keolis/Amey Wales franchise. Hey, its Wales, the carrier pigeon must have got lost somewhere along the M4. So in answer to your original question, 'would there be demand for a 4th builder?' Yes there would! Would there be demand for a 5th builder though? I doubt it. Alstom (up until the point that they merge with Siemens) have got their base in Widnes, which at the moment is repainting Pendolinos, and has a potential future use converting existing stock into hydrogen powered units, but they are also claiming that they have the capability to turn it into a production line if they get any orders - the first of which could come from the next SouthEastern franchise if it is won by Stagecoach, with whom Alstom have partnered. And let's not forget that Talgo are sniffing around the UK rolling stock industry, specifically for the HS2 order which would necessitate another factory. I don't think the question is if there will be demand for future factories, but if there'll be enough to keep all of the currently confirmed ones open once the current glut of rolling stock ordering has dried up, you have to fear that some of these factories won't have much to do in the near future.
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Post by alpinejohn on Aug 28, 2018 18:42:36 GMT
"... you have to fear that some of these factories won't have much to do in the near future..."
Sums it up nicely.
Thanks to the need to modify or replace passenger rolling stock to meet new accessibility rules, orders have been placed which will see over half of all British passenger rolling stock replaced in a decade. But once that deadline passes there is surely going to be a lot of production capacity chasing very few orders. Only a true optimist can seriously believe that there will be enough orders to keep all those factories active.
Even ignoring the likelihood of some orders being fulfilled from overseas, once the CAF production line goes live in Newport there will be an astonishing 5 mainstream passenger rolling stock production lines operational and some peripheral activity with VivaRail in Long Marston and Flex769 by Brush in Loughborough.
That harsh commercial reality surely explains why legal challenges are now being launched against the recent Piccadilly rolling stock tender - which seems very likely to be chosen for the rest of the deep tube lines and effectively lock out competitors, for decades.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 9:59:24 GMT
Train design has advanced beyond recognition from 20-40 years ago.
Yes it has gone from good to awful.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 10:39:07 GMT
Yes it has gone from good to awful.
Ah yes, good old times of no automated train announcements, no air conditioning, slam doors, no accessibility, no walk-through trains, no Wi-Fi, slower acceleration, and rubbishy brakes...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 11:02:56 GMT
A massive improvement over the plastic on the rails now.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 31, 2018 12:23:43 GMT
I think you need to distinguish between the improvements in train technology and train accessibility with the decline in interior design quality and seat comfort.
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Post by alpinejohn on Aug 31, 2018 13:29:34 GMT
I do not see much value in debating whether to revive a long departed British train manufacturing name.
Too often things get renamed primarily to remove an adverse association - aka Windscale/Sellafield.
Is there any reason to think a name change will materially alter the reality of railways in the 2020s?
It is however a national sport to grumble, with subjects like the comfort of seats and the British weather perennial favourites. Whilst new style seats, and likewise their orientation may be less inviting to some, railways in general should at last be accessible by most people. If the railways ever figure out a way to harmonise all the competing proprietary modern signalling systems, the 2020s should hopefully see real improvements in service frequency to ease cattle truck conditions on busier services.
I certainly was no fan of years of regular commuting into Central London on packed Metro-Cammell produced 38 stock where seats were usually filthy producing impressive clouds of dust if you were ever fortunate to find one to sit on during the peak. When temperatures became excessive, there was no easy way for passengers to "move along the train", and what little air flow passed through the carriage generally confirmed that someone nearby had personal hygiene issues.
Rosy tinted glasses seem to obscure the views of some enthusiasts who stridently hark back to distant glory days. For me rather than spending cash on rebranding I would prefer any spare cash was devoted to ensuring spacious new deep tube rolling stock gets rolled out asap across the deep tube lines. Travelling on the Bakerloo is so reminiscent of travelling on an Island Line museum piece. The potential of more frequent services using modern walk through air conditioned stock cannot come soon enough for me - but then again I am simply a fare paying passenger so presumably my views do not count.
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 31, 2018 13:57:28 GMT
It's interesting to note that the "Cammell" part of Metropolitan-Cammell comes from when Cammell Laird of Birkenhead separated their carriage building business from their maritime interests.
In 2001 Cammell Laird entered receivership, the yard eventually coming into the hands of NorthWestern Shiprepairers and Shipbuilders (NSS) in 2005. In 2008 NSS rebranded themselves to.... Cammell Laird. This is on the basis that "Cammell Laird is an internationally recognised brand which carries tremendous goodwill when bidding for contracts." It seems to have worked as Cammell Laird have built bits of our new aircraft carriers and the RRS Sir David Attenborough (aka Boaty McBoatface).
Returning to the original question of this thread, the Cammell bit of Met-cam still exists and is going strong, I guess it's up to whoever now owns the brand if they think it's strong enough to come back, or if it belongs in the past.
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Post by John Tuthill on Aug 31, 2018 15:17:51 GMT
It's interesting to note that the "Cammell" part of Metropolitan-Cammell comes from when Cammell Laird of Birkenhead separated their carriage building business from their maritime interests. In 2001 Cammell Laird entered receivership, the yard eventually coming into the hands of NorthWestern Shiprepairers and Shipbuilders (NSS) in 2005. In 2008 NSS rebranded themselves to.... Cammell Laird. This is on the basis that "Cammell Laird is an internationally recognised brand which carries tremendous goodwill when bidding for contracts." It seems to have worked as Cammell Laird have built bits of our new aircraft carriers and the RRS Sir David Attenborough (aka Boaty McBoatface). Returning to the original question of this thread, the Cammell bit of Met-cam still exists and is going strong, I guess it's up to whoever now owns the brand if they think it's strong enough to come back, or if it belongs in the past. I'm old enough to remember seeing the step plate on the 38s on the Northern Line stating: "METROPOLITAN CAMMELL CARRIAGE AND WAGON COMPANY LIMITED."
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Post by westville13 on Aug 31, 2018 16:29:00 GMT
Pretty sure I saw similar plates on the coaches of the Lima - Huancayo railway in Peru back in 1972 (when it ran fairly frequently and regularly).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 12:31:47 GMT
I think you need to distinguish between the improvements in train technology and train accessibility with the decline in interior design quality and seat comfort.
That is precisely my view. Trains may have become more accessable and have more technology, the acceleration is certainly an improvement. But they have become ridiculously smaller in spite of the fact the population is growing not shrinking, seats have been turned in to ironing boards, interiors are lifeless,clinical and a lot of them are more like a cupboard. As for the so called announcements.... I would sooner listen to a person instead of a poorly edited together recorded segment, of someone that sounds like one minute they are having a fit and the next they are really happy. Not what a call an improvement.
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Post by westville13 on Sept 1, 2018 13:19:25 GMT
I have never been "small". The worst rolling stock I regularly travelled on was between Carshalton Beeches and Victoria in the early 1960's - broken down and filthy seats, six a side seating with interlinked knees (and heaven help you if you had to stand) rain and drips inside the compartment, patchy or non-existent heating and so on. Moving to the District Line was an improvement; the introduction of D stock was terrific; and S stock is better. I am happy to be nostalgic on the Bluebell Line but overall things have improved massively in the last 50 years. As for interior finishes these are surely just a matter of taste - certainly I welcomed the introduction of formica and fluorescent lighting when it came to the later Southern Region emu's.
Announcements on the other hand...….
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2018 20:41:26 GMT
That is precisely my view. Trains may have become more accessable and have more technology, the acceleration is certainly an improvement. But they have become ridiculously smaller in spite of the fact the population is growing not shrinking, seats have been turned in to ironing boards, interiors are lifeless,clinical and a lot of them are more like a cupboard. As for the so called announcements.... I would sooner listen to a person instead of a poorly edited together recorded segment, of someone that sounds like one minute they are having a fit and the next they are really happy. Not what a call an improvement.
How are they smaller? And automated voice announcements are pretty good on newer trains.
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Post by phoenixcronin on Oct 15, 2018 13:32:03 GMT
What is the correct name: Metro Cammell or Metro-Cammell?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 15, 2018 14:35:42 GMT
The official Companies House register shows former names for company No 00293588 as Alstom Transport (1998-2017), GEC Alsthom Metro-Cammell Ltd (with a hyphen, 1993-1998), and Metropolitan Cammell Ltd (no hyphen, 1934-1993)
So from that I would suggest "Metro-" with a hyphen or "Metropolitan" without. Metro-Cammell was in common, but unofficial, usage long before it became the official name in 1993 - see for instance the doorplates in the 1973 stock. It was also used in the name of the bus-building joint venture Metro-Cammell-Weymann.
I don't think we ever got clarification on which of Metro-Cammell's many and varied designs a questioner meant by "the" Metro-Cammell design? To some, the name may conjure up images of 1972 stock, to others the name will be synonymous with the class 101 dmu, the Blue Pullmans or the Brighton Belle.
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