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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2018 16:55:39 GMT
It really bothers me that the tube feels the need to open all doors at all stations. In the peak of winter, it's almost painful to be hit with that gust of cold air at every station. From my understanding, they stopped passenger operation 1)to shorten dwell times 2) due to an incident of someone trapping their head in the doors I honestly don't think the dwell times is a good excuse, you could perhaps automatically open them at busier stations like Thameslink but keep them passenger operated elsewhere As for people getting trapped, why not have a feature where passengers open the doors but not close them, after all, when the exit is at the other side of the platform there will often be nobody getting off From TFLs Video of their vision for the new tube for London, it appears there won't be buttons; this scares me. Surely buttons would be feasible especially with sensors to stop closing if there's someone there. Without buttons, that means there can't even be auto-close as people wouldn't be able to reopen them. Please TFL, close the doors. Even 45 seconds on the s stock is too long, make it 20.
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Post by croxleyn on Apr 10, 2018 18:03:00 GMT
Good idea, but you would need some announcement just before the train's stationary - "Press Button to open door" or some such. I remember feeling a right ... when waiting for a (non-automatic) door to open, don't recall which class. Fortunately didn't miss the station though.
However, if the button is on the side of the door framework, when really busy, one cannot reach it so even if the station is minor, it should still be an Auto-open. Therefore the driver would need to know the crush factor at every door.
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Post by superteacher on Apr 10, 2018 18:27:53 GMT
It seems that almost every other railway in Britain (and most metros abroad) cope with passenger door open (and in some cases close), but London Underground can’t seem to manage with it. They’ve even disabled the close facility on class 378’s.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2018 18:59:06 GMT
Good idea, but you would need some announcement just before the train's stationary - "Press Button to open door" or some such. I remember feeling a right ... when waiting for a (non-automatic) door to open, don't recall which class. Fortunately didn't miss the station though. However, if the button is on the side of the door framework, when really busy, one cannot reach it so even if the station is minor, it should still be an Auto-open. Therefore the driver would need to know the crush factor at every door. Thameslink does it the other way. At central stations, it says "the doors will open automatically at the next station" And about positioning of the buttons. Many have criticized Siemens 700s and 707s for having buttons only on one side. I personally think it should be standard for there to be one button physically on the door on the inside so no stretching has to be done and buttons by the edge of the door on the outside but only the s stock has mastered this. I've mentioned this in another thread; it allows for better passenger flow.
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Post by roman80 on Apr 10, 2018 21:30:51 GMT
I certainly would favour bringing the 45 second hold on S stock down. Summer and winter it's a waste of energy, and particularly at stations with long dwell times due to padding in the timetable or driver changes such as Earls Court, it makes sense to bring down. Especially now as most passengers know a closed door can be opened if the button is lit, on a held S stock train.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2018 21:05:15 GMT
Back in the day the 1992 stock trains had the door controls set to passenger open and close. I have fond memories of boarding a train and pressing close. The external door buttons no longer work however the saloon controls do still function, when the switch is turned on from the cab.
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Post by superteacher on Jun 30, 2018 6:11:09 GMT
Back in the day the 1992 stock trains had the door controls set to passenger open and close. I have fond memories of boarding a train and pressing close. The external door buttons no longer work however the saloon controls do still function, when the switch is turned on from the cab. However the system isn’t maintained so there’s no guarantee that any button would work. Of course drivers are not permitted to use passenger open mode.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2018 10:46:13 GMT
It does still work the only problem is firstly the doors won't open from the outside, and secondly passengers just stand at the doors waiting for them to open.
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Post by superteacher on Jun 30, 2018 14:41:05 GMT
It does still work the only problem is firstly the doors won't open from the outside, and secondly passengers just stand at the doors waiting for them to open. How do you know it still works when it is never used?
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Post by Chris M on Jun 30, 2018 14:52:53 GMT
secondly passengers just stand at the doors waiting for them to open. This happens every day on the DLR, but either someone standing nearby presses the button for them, tells them to press the button and/or they figure it out. I've never seen anyone fail to board or alight where they intended due to this - even on one occasion when the outside door button was broken the person outside just quickly moved to the adjacent open door. Even on the 1992 stock where pressing the button hasn't done anything at all for over a decade there are plenty of people who still push them when wanting to alight - especially if there is more than about 2 seconds between the train coming to a stop and the doors opening.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jun 30, 2018 17:44:08 GMT
I certainly would favour bringing the 45 second hold on S stock down. Summer and winter it's a waste of energy, and particularly at stations with long dwell times due to padding in the timetable or driver changes such as Earls Court, it makes sense to bring down. Especially now as most passengers know a closed door can be opened if the button is lit, on a held S stock train. No, please, no. It's bad enough as it is at a terminus where passengers (few of whom seem to have grasped the concept that a train's departure is controlled by signals, and if there is a bright red light at the far end of the platform the train is not going anywhere for at least a few seconds) stream onto the platform and hurl themselves at the first set of doors should they ever manage to close for a second or two. Followed by the vast majority seeming to promenade through most of the length of the train.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2018 19:45:34 GMT
I get what you mean, when Im waiting for the train to leave at Wimbledon. The amount of people that launch themselves between the doors when they auto-close is remarkable, you'll then get somebody behind that just pushes the button for them to stay open for another 45seconds. Do people not notice that 1)as you said, the train is controlled by signals and 2) the driver won't just shut the doors when the signal does turn green, they'll make sure everyone has boarded, or some open all doors as a sort of signal that they're gonna leave.
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Post by superteacher on Jun 30, 2018 20:17:25 GMT
I get what you mean, when Im waiting for the train to leave at Wimbledon. The amount of people that launch themselves between the doors when they auto-close is remarkable, you'll then get somebody behind that just ,pushes the button for them to stay open for another 45seconds. Do people not notice that 1)as you said, the train is controlled by signals and 2) the driver won't just shut the doors when the signal does turn green, they'll make sure everyone has boarded, or some open all doors as a sort of signal that they're gonna leave. The only way you’ll ever curb people launching themselves towards closing doors is by installing doors that hurt!
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Post by banana99 on Jul 1, 2018 0:15:02 GMT
The last few posts are very "railway centric". You would be surprised to know there's only a very small minority that understand railway signalling. Strange that. Not only that but pausing on the platform to take stock of the signal doesn't naturally enter most people's mind. Also what are they then supposed to do? Walk backwards towards the rear of the train keeping a keen eye on the platform repeater or the white lights of the Jubilee Line? Is there actually a difference between i) I am closing the doors because I am leaving beep-beep-beep and the ii) I am closing the doors because of the A/C beep-beep-beep? Probably not eh? The sheer amount of inconsistency between lines will not help either. Compare i) the Jubilee Line - it beeps we are leaving now! ii) the District Line - I am beeping simply to make you hurry up, I have no intention of closing the doors. Therein a problem. Passengers are, on the whole, logical. Just don't get me started on those the think they have to run for a 90-second interval service. As a "larger gentleman" I do get some entertainment from this...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 1:10:57 GMT
It would actually be quite smart to have a different close tone for when the train is actually departing or just closing its doors. I get what you mean about inconsistency and can understand why it's confusing. On the deep tube, when the doors close, as you said you know you're finally leaving but when waiting on a district line train at earls court, you don't really know until it suddenly starts moving. To be honest, I don't expect passengers to understand signalling, I don't know what I expect them to understand but sometimes, (myself included) they do such questionable things that makes you wonder if there's nothing that can be done to make things clearer for them.
Once I observed a lady who thought she missed the train even though the doors were still unlocked so I opened it for her. This doesn't happen too often though and you usually find the opposite when people try to open the doors when the trains about to leave
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Post by 35b on Jul 1, 2018 6:14:13 GMT
The last few posts are very "railway centric". You would be surprised to know there's only a very small minority that understand railway signalling. Strange that. Not only that but pausing on the platform to take stock of the signal doesn't naturally enter most people's mind. Also what are they then supposed to do? Walk backwards towards the rear of the train keeping a keen eye on the platform repeater or the white lights of the Jubilee Line? Is there actually a difference between i) I am closing the doors because I am leaving beep-beep-beep and the ii) I am closing the doors because of the A/C beep-beep-beep? Probably not eh? The sheer amount of inconsistency between lines will not help either. Compare i) the Jubilee Line - it beeps we are leaving now! ii) the District Line - I am beeping simply to make you hurry up, I have no intention of closing the doors. Therein a problem. Passengers are, on the whole, logical. Just don't get me started on those the think they have to run for a 90-second interval service. As a "larger gentleman" I do get some entertainment from this... You make a big assumption about signals. My experience is that many do understand signalling, at least to the extent that if the signal’s red, the train won’t move. Hustle alarms, however, are confusing-even to this enthusiast.
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Post by class411 on Jul 1, 2018 8:18:12 GMT
The last few posts are very "railway centric". You would be surprised to know there's only a very small minority that understand railway signalling. Strange that. Are you really suggesting that people don't know that a red signal at the end of a platform means that the train can't move? From observation, this is evidently true. I was thinking of stations such as Hammersmith HC&C, where the first set of doors nearest the barrier are at the rear end of the train so everyone has a clear forward view of the actual signal controlling the train.
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Post by Chris M on Jul 1, 2018 9:24:07 GMT
Are you really suggesting that people don't know that a red signal at the end of a platform means that the train can't move? If you asked them they would probably know that, but they have no knowledge of how long it is going to be red or how long there is between the signal turning green and the doors closing. The signal is not always clearly visible (especially for short people on busy platforms), and not everybody's eyesight In my experience the interval between a diver getting a proceed signal and closing the doors varies between about 2 and 10 seconds. I've experienced drivers who waited for those walking alongside the train to enter, and I've experienced drivers who have not. This applies equally to the tube and the DLR. I presume that the extended delays are due to something like the driver not being quite ready for whatever reason, or some indication that its not safe to close the doors at that moment (and I have no way of knowing which, or predicting which is going to be the case). In times of disruption I've experienced trains sat at green signals for minutes at a time (in at least one case the driver explicitly said that they could see the train in front so they were waiting at the platform not in the tunnel). Without some clear, reliable and consistent indicator designed for passengers that explicitly says how long they have until the doors close for the final time before departure, it is perfectly logical for passengers to board at the first available door and walk through the train. Particularly if the environment on the train is better than the environment outside (warmer or dryer particularly).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 9:38:11 GMT
I presume that the extended delays are due to something like the driver not being quite ready for whatever reason, or some indication that its not safe to close the doors at that moment (and I have no way of knowing which, or predicting which is going to be the case). In times of disruption I've experienced trains sat at green signals for minutes at a time (in at least one case the driver explicitly said that they could see the train in front so they were waiting at the platform not in the tunnel).
Both of those things, but also, at a terminus like Hammersmith, the signal is likely to come off (clear) about 30 seconds or so before the booked departure time to help ensure a timely departure. Some drivers will close their doors and go, others may wait until closer to the booked departure time.
Although, I'm not sure how well this applies to other termini with colour light signalling - particularly those controlled by computers or electronic programme machines. And obviously it wasn't supposed to be the case at Hammersmith anymore
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Post by class411 on Jul 1, 2018 10:15:01 GMT
Are you really suggesting that people don't know that a red signal at the end of a platform means that the train can't move? If you asked them they would probably know that, but they have no knowledge of how long it is going to be red or how long there is between the signal turning green and the doors closing. The signal is not always clearly visible (especially for short people on busy platforms), and not everybody's eyesight In my experience the interval between a diver getting a proceed signal and closing the doors varies between about 2 and 10 seconds. I've experienced drivers who waited for those walking alongside the train to enter, and I've experienced drivers who have not. This applies equally to the tube and the DLR. I presume that the extended delays are due to something like the driver not being quite ready for whatever reason, or some indication that its not safe to close the doors at that moment (and I have no way of knowing which, or predicting which is going to be the case). In times of disruption I've experienced trains sat at green signals for minutes at a time (in at least one case the driver explicitly said that they could see the train in front so they were waiting at the platform not in the tunnel). Without some clear, reliable and consistent indicator designed for passengers that explicitly says how long they have until the doors close for the final time before departure, it is perfectly logical for passengers to board at the first available door and walk through the train. Particularly if the environment on the train is better than the environment outside (warmer or dryer particularly). All this may well be true, but this inability to interpret the signalling seems to have coincided with the arrival of walk through trains. Before the introduction of the S-Stock, people would walk alongside the train and either use the signal or the door beeps to time their entry. As you correctly point out, there may be times when the inside of the train is more inviting than continuing outside, but it's generally easier to walk outside the train than weave along inside it, so I'm still not entirely clear why passengers have lost confidence in their ability to successfully enter the train whilst still attempting to reach their optimum carriage on the more easily navigable platform.
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Post by rincew1nd on Jul 1, 2018 10:27:46 GMT
Before the introduction of the S-Stock, people would walk alongside the train and either use the signal or the door beeps to time their entry. As you correctly point out, there may be times when the inside of the train is more inviting than continuing outside, but it's generally easier to walk outside the train than weave along inside it, so I'm still not entirely clear why passengers have lost confidence in their ability to successfully enter the train whilst still attempting to reach their optimum carriage on the more easily navigable platform. With previous stock you couldn't walk through. If you are picky about your travelling environment your only option was to walk along the platform looking for somewhere you were happy with, knowing that as soon as door alarm sounds you'd have to dive through the nearest doorway. Now you can walk through at leisure with no anxiety about when exactly it will leave. It's the certainty. MerseyRail termini have departure boards so passengers know how long they have until departure. If there's ten minutes people walk along the platform and find a comfortable seat. If there's a minute people will get on the first opportunity and then walk through it to find their seat of choice.
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Post by class411 on Jul 1, 2018 11:28:49 GMT
Before the introduction of the S-Stock, people would walk alongside the train and either use the signal or the door beeps to time their entry. As you correctly point out, there may be times when the inside of the train is more inviting than continuing outside, but it's generally easier to walk outside the train than weave along inside it, so I'm still not entirely clear why passengers have lost confidence in their ability to successfully enter the train whilst still attempting to reach their optimum carriage on the more easily navigable platform. With previous stock you couldn't walk through. If you are picky about your travelling environment your only option was to walk along the platform looking for somewhere you were happy with, knowing that as soon as door alarm sounds you'd have to dive through the nearest doorway. Now you can walk through at leisure with no anxiety about when exactly it will leave. It's the certainty. MerseyRail termini have departure boards so passengers know how long they have until departure. If there's ten minutes people walk along the platform and find a comfortable seat. If there's a minute people will get on the first opportunity and then walk through it to find their seat of choice. I can see the logic in this argument, but if it's a complete answer, then why is it that on NR, people will continue to walk along the outside of walk-through trains right up to - and in some cases past, the scheduled departure time? There is something quite illogical about people's behaviour, and, having given it further thought I think it's down to the confusion - to which someone allude earlier - between the 'I'm just about to depart' beeps and the 'I don't want the passengers getting too hot/cold so I'm closing these doors' beeps.
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Post by superteacher on Jul 1, 2018 11:39:04 GMT
With previous stock you couldn't walk through. If you are picky about your travelling environment your only option was to walk along the platform looking for somewhere you were happy with, knowing that as soon as door alarm sounds you'd have to dive through the nearest doorway. Now you can walk through at leisure with no anxiety about when exactly it will leave. It's the certainty. MerseyRail termini have departure boards so passengers know how long they have until departure. If there's ten minutes people walk along the platform and find a comfortable seat. If there's a minute people will get on the first opportunity and then walk through it to find their seat of choice. I can see the logic in this argument, but if it's a complete answer, then why is it that on NR, people will continue to walk along the outside of walk-through trains right up to - and in some cases past, the scheduled departure time? There is something quite illogical about people's behaviour, and, having given it further thought I think it's down to the confusion - to which someone allude earlier - between the 'I'm just about to depart' beeps and the 'I don't want the passengers getting too hot/cold so I'm closing these doors' beeps. Maybe NR passengers listen out for the departure whistle?
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Post by class411 on Jul 1, 2018 13:20:11 GMT
I can see the logic in this argument, but if it's a complete answer, then why is it that on NR, people will continue to walk along the outside of walk-through trains right up to - and in some cases past, the scheduled departure time? There is something quite illogical about people's behaviour, and, having given it further thought I think it's down to the confusion - to which someone allude earlier - between the 'I'm just about to depart' beeps and the 'I don't want the passengers getting too hot/cold so I'm closing these doors' beeps. Maybe NR passengers listen out for the departure whistle? So, on the one hand, underground passengers are too ignorant to understand even the most elementary aspects of signalling, but NR passengers all know about the departure whistle (that doesn't always happen).
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Post by AndrewPSSP on Jul 1, 2018 13:37:50 GMT
I think with NR it's the fact that they "know" that the train will be leaving at a specific time (e.g. 1207) and if they see that the time is about 1205 then they will just take a leisurely stroll up to the door of their choice. On the other hand, I have seen at times where people will run for the train if it is, for example, 12:06:45 and the train is scheduled to depart at 1207. Most people also seem to know the time of their train and arrive well in time for it. I seem to remember a campaign once that said that train doors will be closing 30secs before departure - don't know if that's still the case.
On the Tube, most people don't know the timetable and on the DMIs (most of the time) it says "1. Tower Hill " with a blank where the minutes would be so you're not entirely sure if it's going to leave now or in a few minutes. Something I like about the indicators on the Central line is that, most of the time, it says "Mind the Doors" when the doors about to close. I think that's a good feature which should be implemented on all of the boards across the network. I also like the big text and the fact that the lights aren't too bright. One thing I don't like about the new DMIs is 1) their size and 2) the brightness of the diodes. Even with my eyesight I can't read it unless I get fairly close.
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Post by superteacher on Jul 1, 2018 13:46:19 GMT
I think with NR it's the fact that they "know" that the train will be leaving at a specific time (e.g. 1207) and if they see that the time is about 1205 then they will just take a leisurely stroll up to the door of their choice. On the other hand, I have seen at times where people will run for the train if it is, for example, 12:06:45 and the train is scheduled to depart at 1207. Most people also seem to know the time of their train and arrive well in time for it. I seem to remember a campaign once that said that train doors will be closing 30secs before departure - don't know if that's still the case. On the Tube, most people don't know the timetable and on the DMIs (most of the time) it says "1. Tower Hill " with a blank where the minutes would be so you're not entirely sure if it's going to leave now or in a few minutes. Something I like about the indicators on the Central line is that, most of the time, it says "Mind the Doors" when the doors about to close. I think that's a good feature which should be implemented on all of the boards across the network. I also like the big text and the fact that the lights aren't too bright. One thing I don't like about the new DMIs is 1) their size and 2) the brightness of the diodes. Even with my eyesight I can't read it unless I get fairly close. The Central line boards say “Mind the Doors” when the train receives a proceed code. No idea why the the other ATO lines didn’t repeat the feature.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 17:38:11 GMT
I think with NR it's the fact that they "know" that the train will be leaving at a specific time (e.g. 1207) and if they see that the time is about 1205 then they will just take a leisurely stroll up to the door of their choice. On the other hand, I have seen at times where people will run for the train if it is, for example, 12:06:45 and the train is scheduled to depart at 1207. Most people also seem to know the time of their train and arrive well in time for it. I seem to remember a campaign once that said that train doors will be closing 30secs before departure - don't know if that's still the case. On the Tube, most people don't know the timetable and on the DMIs (most of the time) it says "1. Tower Hill " with a blank where the minutes would be so you're not entirely sure if it's going to leave now or in a few minutes. Something I like about the indicators on the Central line is that, most of the time, it says "Mind the Doors" when the doors about to close. I think that's a good feature which should be implemented on all of the boards across the network. I also like the big text and the fact that the lights aren't too bright. One thing I don't like about the new DMIs is 1) their size and 2) the brightness of the diodes. Even with my eyesight I can't read it unless I get fairly close. The Central line boards say “Mind the Doors” when the train receives a proceed code. No idea why the the other ATO lines didn’t repeat the feature.
The Central line boards say "Mind the Doors" a few seconds before the countdown timer in the cab reaches zero, I believe when the chimes begin to sound in the cab telling the operator it's time to go, but perhaps not exactly then.
If it's an automatic signal, the train could have had a positive target speed the whole time.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 18:35:55 GMT
It really bothers me that the tube feels the need to open all doors at all stations. In the peak of winter, it's almost painful to be hit with that gust of cold air at every station. From my understanding, they stopped passenger operation 1)to shorten dwell times 2) due to an incident of someone trapping their head in the doors I honestly don't think the dwell times is a good excuse, you could perhaps automatically open them at busier stations like Thameslink but keep them passenger operated elsewhere As for people getting trapped, why not have a feature where passengers open the doors but not close them, after all, when the exit is at the other side of the platform there will often be nobody getting off From TFLs Video of their vision for the new tube for London, it appears there won't be buttons; this scares me. Surely buttons would be feasible especially with sensors to stop closing if there's someone there. Without buttons, that means there can't even be auto-close as people wouldn't be able to reopen them. Please TFL, close the doors. Even 45 seconds on the s stock is too long, make it 20. IF they are to have air con, buttons like on the s stock are going to be required surely
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Post by superteacher on Jul 1, 2018 19:44:11 GMT
From the Central line thread:
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jul 1, 2018 19:45:03 GMT
I seem to remember a campaign once that said that train doors will be closing 30secs before departure - don't know if that's still the case. They still have notices to that effect, and still do it - it is not unknown for the train to be moving before the advertised departure time. (It is, of course, also quite common for the train to have not turned up by the advertised departure time......)
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