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Post by gals on Mar 7, 2018 23:25:38 GMT
Are the Pic trains going through a mid-life refurb? I was on one this morning and the lighting was bright, the moquette had been changed to Barman-style a la central line, the grab poles had all been freshly painted and it felt like stepping onto a new train! I was very impressed.
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Post by superteacher on Mar 7, 2018 23:29:52 GMT
Are the Pic trains going through a mid-life refurb? I was on one this morning and the lighting was bright, the moquette had been changed to Barman-style a la central line, the grab poles had all been freshly painted and it felt like stepping onto a new train! I was very impressed. Mid life? I think the thought of these trains having another 40+ years in service is too terrible to comprehend! They had a mid life refurb in the 90s. Maybe the one you got on was a refresh?
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Post by gals on Mar 7, 2018 23:39:13 GMT
Knowing TfL I wouldn't be surprised haha ... yes, definitely felt "refreshed" if that's the official lingo for it. It's amazing what a lick of paint and a new moquette can do.
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Post by MoreToJack on Mar 8, 2018 0:48:32 GMT
Just two trains so far as far as I am aware - I don't have the unit numbers to hand, but the units formerly in the Night Tube livery have standard Barman moquette and one of the units used as a Sandite during the autumn has received a refreshed interior including a sightly different version of Barman and repainted handrails etc, essentially to tidy up the mess made by the Sandite. I'm not sure if any more are due to be refreshed, but I'd be surprised if they weren't - the Tube Lines moquette is no longer available and trains are a similar condition to that seen on the Bakerloo line prior to their refresh. fish7373 may have more info.
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Post by mattb on Mar 8, 2018 1:14:47 GMT
I seem to remember reading that 890 is one of the vehicles to have been refreshed internally so far, along with 215 and 856. Hope this is of assistance...
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Post by goldenarrow on Mar 8, 2018 11:56:33 GMT
The Tube lines moquette must have become obsolete some time ago, the "perches" by the doors and at the car ends have been popping up with barman all over the place from at least 2016.
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Post by fish7373 on Mar 10, 2018 2:07:43 GMT
Just two trains so far as far as I am aware - I don't have the unit numbers to hand, but the units formerly in the Night Tube livery have standard Barman moquette and one of the units used as a Sandite during the autumn has received a refreshed interior including a sightly different version of Barman and repainted handrails etc, essentially to tidy up the mess made by the Sandite. I'm not sure if any more are due to be refreshed, but I'd be surprised if they weren't - the Tube Lines moquette is no longer available and trains are a similar condition to that seen on the Bakerloo line prior to their refresh. fish7373 may have more info. Yes mid mid life refurb But called life extension done at cockfoster depot.
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Post by philthetube on Mar 10, 2018 7:09:09 GMT
I thought they had a mid life refurb 20 years ago?
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Post by superteacher on Mar 10, 2018 7:33:57 GMT
I thought they had a mid life refurb 20 years ago? They did but that was a more substantial refurb than this one.
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Post by goldenarrow on Mar 14, 2018 22:49:33 GMT
Another variation of Barman (think I'm going to call it Brompton Blue Barman) has been captured on camera.
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 14, 2018 23:03:15 GMT
I really like this actually looks a little more LT in my mind.
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Post by alpinejohn on Mar 15, 2018 9:18:11 GMT
Whilst some may see this as a waste of money if replacements are just about to be ordered, I too think this looks well worthwhile from a passengers perspective.
"...it felt like stepping onto a new train! I was very impressed.." says it all.
So its a shame that its just a couple of trains had this make-over.
Passengers just want a train which is comfortable, reliable and clean. I don't care if the rolling stock is 5 or 50 years old, if the basic mechanics still work OK, then opting for an internals only refresh is a cost effective way of providing what passengers are looking for.
Hopefully this frugal approach will help TFL to find funds to sort out the signalling and track which increasingly seems to be the Achilles heel for the Piccadilly in recent years.
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Post by goldenarrow on Mar 15, 2018 16:57:14 GMT
Was just on refurbished double ended unit 891/890 which has been paired with 602 I think. Incredible to see what a clean of the lighting elements, some paint and a change in moquette makes to the interior. The seats themselves are definitely firmer, there must be some extra support that has been added to the seat structure. Having now seen this in person, I definitely agree with metman , there's definitely an LT vibe. For those whom may be at a time and place (Thurs 15th March 2018 only) to catch 891/890 it is currently on train 257 operating 16:43 Uxbridge-Cockfosters, 18:31 Cockfosters-Heathrow T4, 20:05 Heathrow T4-Cockfosters, 21:46 Cockforsters-Heathrow T5 (calls at Turnham Green) and 23:32 Heathrow T5-Cockfosters (calls at Turnham Green). Apologies for the poor quality of these images which were taken on my worn out phone, my back got quite the shock when I didn't sink into the seats as usual! The top image was taken between Hillingdon to Uxbridge just passing that notoriously bumpy slip switch (thankfully it will be gone soon) whilst the second image was taken whilst the train basked in the afternoon sun at Uxbridge.
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 16, 2018 7:30:54 GMT
That fact that the seats appear to be harder than previous is disappointing.
I wonder when the days of bringing ones own cushion will arrive (especially if you have a bad back- although a firmer seat can be beneficial!)?
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Post by superteacher on Mar 16, 2018 7:50:01 GMT
That fact that the seats appear to be harder than previous is disappointing. I wonder when the days of bringing ones own cushion will arrive (especially if you have a bad back- although a firmer seat can be beneficial!)? I think that already happens on Thameslink with the class 700’s!
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class411
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Post by class411 on Mar 16, 2018 10:43:36 GMT
That fact that the seats appear to be harder than previous is disappointing. I wonder when the days of bringing ones own cushion will arrive (especially if you have a bad back- although a firmer seat can be beneficial!)? They may well 'bed in' after a few weeks.
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Post by bigvern on Mar 16, 2018 18:19:49 GMT
The reasons the seats have become harder, as replacements on the Jubilee, Northern lines is the spring cases fail and parts of the metal spring protrude from the seat and some injuries had been reported, the seats were replaced with a solid aluminium box with a high density foam over the top, suspect these new seats are of a similar design, as seats taken from this train will be reused on other in the Piccadilly fleet, whether the money is available to change them all, time will tell.
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 16, 2018 23:53:33 GMT
Another variation of Barman (think I'm going to call it Brompton Blue Barman) has been captured on camera.
I have no objection to this version but I do wish the Central Line had its own version too! Jealous Simon
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Post by goldenarrow on Mar 17, 2018 12:16:12 GMT
I have no objection to this version but I do wish the Central Line had its own version too! Jealous Simon It's ironic that the Barman moquette was intended to be of a unifying colour scheme and that ignoring this idiom has actually given those lines (with variants of Barman) a sense of identity even if they stem from the same design. @jammz posted up a mock up of what they though a Red Barman could have looked like on this thread. districtdavesforum.co.uk/post/369456
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Post by A60stock on Mar 17, 2018 16:07:04 GMT
so the refresh is only for some trains? if the old seats are causing a problem, why not just replace them all? How long is the 1973 stock realistically going to be around for? Will it reach 2025?
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Post by goldenarrow on Mar 17, 2018 17:00:09 GMT
so the refresh is only for some trains? if the old seats are causing a problem, why not just replace them all? How long is the 1973 stock realistically going to be around for? Will it reach 2025? It depends on whether it will be cost effective to foot the bill for a wholesale refresh of the fleet when there is at least more substantial evidence for the 73's replacement with the Piccadilly being the first line to receive new rolling stock as part of the Deep Tube Upgrade Programme (DTUP). Ex-Rail Adhesion Trains (RAT's) 890/891 and 868/869 were chosen simply because of the mess they were in after the leaf fall season. Doing this work purley on a circumstantial basis is more expensive in the long term but it may be the best solution for a few select deteriorating units if the end is in sight.
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Post by Alight on Mar 18, 2018 23:35:18 GMT
I have no objection to this version but I do wish the Central Line had its own version too! Jealous Simon It's ironic that the Barman moquette was intended to be of a unifying colour scheme and that ignoring this idiom has actually given those lines (with variants of Barman) a sense of identity even if they stem from the same design. @jammz posted up a mock up of what they though a Red Barman could have looked like on this thread. districtdavesforum.co.uk/post/369456I thought TfL's justification for using the standard Barman moquette was economies of scale. They seem to have changed their tune on this one, as the Piccadilly line of ALL the lines would have been best suited to the standard Barman in the first place, given its colour. While I like the design of this new variation (as do I also for the Bakerloo line), it just seems a bit unnecessary on this occasion.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Mar 19, 2018 20:12:58 GMT
Very true. The customisable option of moquette is the design itself. Presumably it's cheaper to bulk order the same moquette, and limit line-specific customisations to things which are bespoke to each line anyway, like trim, grab poles, crests, car numbers.... Perhaps they found out its just as cheap to order smaller batches of different design, though that sounds doubtful?
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Post by domh245 on Mar 19, 2018 22:37:19 GMT
Very true. The customisable option of moquette is the design itself. Presumably it's cheaper to bulk order the same moquette, and limit line-specific customisations to things which are bespoke to each line anyway, like trim, grab poles, crests, car numbers.... Perhaps they found out its just as cheap to order smaller batches of different design, though that sounds doubtful? I'll admit to having little to no idea about textile weaving and moquette production, but I would expect that the pattern is the expensive bit, and the yarns used to make the thing have to be purchased every time you want to make some, so it'll cost little or no extra to use brown yarn instead of blue (or whatever) on the same pattern. Similarly, I very much doubt that the covers used on 73TS can also be used on 92TS or 95TS (and so on) so there isn't that much bulk ordering that can be done if each cover is individually made instead of being cut from sheet.
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Post by mcmaddog on Mar 19, 2018 22:50:09 GMT
My totally uninformed guess is someone from expense management decided on a single moquette for the fleet, then after seeing what was done to the Northern line, someone from the culture department said let's compromise...
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Post by tjw on Mar 20, 2018 8:16:43 GMT
I'll admit to having little to no idea about textile weaving and moquette production, but I would expect that the pattern is the expensive bit, ... Having worked on historic carriages we have ordered moquette... The first thing we do is send them a sample of the pattern we want, the company Holdworth? will look through their punched cards (Jacquard en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_loom ) to find the pattern. We then have to choose the colours from their modern stocks to match the original pattern. We would usually be sent samples (i presume these were made by a different process), once we were happy they would then produce a roll, which is the minimum that can be ordered. A roll is rather long and is a lot more than enough to trim a carriage or bus, so we would need to sell off the excess, or find other carriages / buses that could use that pattern. As for Barman once a card is produced of the pattern, changing the colour is easy as long as you want a whole roll, I suspect that a roll would trim say 2 tube trains... So they could produce unique colour schemes for each line.
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Post by phoenixcronin on Mar 20, 2018 16:48:40 GMT
Just to add, the ex Night Tube units (103/252) have had something done on the exterior livery as well. Not simply just a peeling off of the night tube vinyl. Can't quite explain it but it's noticeable when looking at it compared to a normal unit. The unit numbers are of a different style, for example
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Post by goldenarrow on Mar 20, 2018 17:43:44 GMT
Just to add, the ex Night Tube units (103/252) have had something done on the exterior livery as well. Not simply just a peeling off of the night tube vinyl. Can't quite explain it but it's noticeable when looking at it compared to a normal unit. The unit numbers are of a different style, for example Johnston100 fonts being used perhaps.
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Post by mcmaddog on Mar 20, 2018 19:23:34 GMT
Pretty sure there’s also a single 378 going around with different looking unit numbers aligned under the roundel rather than carriage ends.
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Post by domh245 on Mar 20, 2018 20:32:25 GMT
Pretty sure there’s also a single 378 going around with different looking unit numbers aligned under the roundel rather than carriage ends. Yes, I believe that is unit 378135. They've also removed the unit number from the front of the train and put it on the side of the train along the floor level of the cab, as on the 710s. That said, the vehicle number on the 710s is positioned as on the 378s going by the pictures and video of 710258 on the way to France, so it does seem a little odd.
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