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Post by d7666 on Apr 11, 2018 11:39:29 GMT
how is it people seem to think PEP stock fits and DLR stock does not?
-- Nick
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 11, 2018 12:16:12 GMT
how is it people seem to think PEP stock fits and DLR stock does not? Because the two are different shapes.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 11, 2018 12:16:49 GMT
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 11, 2018 12:54:33 GMT
The 2nd hand trailers in some of the SWR trains have a much lower profile than the rest of the train. Presumably the trains being replaced in Merseyside might fit but they are well past their sell by date.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 11, 2018 13:42:35 GMT
The 2nd hand trailers in some of the SWR trains have a much lower profile than the rest of the train. Presumably the trains being replaced in Merseyside might fit but they are well past their sell by date. The Merseyrail trains to which you refer are to the same design (generically known as PEP stock) as those secondhand trailers. Indeed, the trailers were originally formed in those very units (class 508) - the units were converted from four-car to three car when they were transferred from SW London to Merseyside, the spare trailers being then incorporated in new class 455 units.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 16, 2018 19:36:26 GMT
I spent Sunday on the IoW with beingcharley. Units 4 and 6 were operating the service, 7 was nowhere to been seen (presumably inside the depot) with the others stabled outside as usual. I posted some pictures on my Twitter feed. Click here and here if embedded tweets fail to display.
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Post by alpinejohn on May 7, 2018 12:13:46 GMT
Nice pictures. It seems the view in that last picture with the hovercraft may not be around for much longer. The following IoW newspaper article contains plenty of interesting "observations".. Iow Council MeetingThis report of discussion at a formal Council meeting seemingly implies things are actually a lot further advanced that I thought and indeed proposals due to be made to D/Transport by the end of this month and if D-Transport sign off their plans then newer trains could be arriving on the island in 2020. So what exactly are they saying? (1) The significant proposals for improvements to the line and the Hovercraft connection implies that South Western Railway are really serious about improving the Island Line. You probably don't bother drawing up any detailed plans for significant investment if they want to abandon the line. (2) There cannot be many deliverable options for (used but significantly newer) rolling stock to be in service by 2020? The answer is almost certainly some variant of the Vivarail product line, as I doubt TFL will have any spare Piccadilly line stock available by 2020. (3) Third rail, Battery or diesel? There would probably be too much political flack to choose diesel - nasty emissions etc. Converting the DMs from 4 rail to 3 rail is presumably the easy/cheap option so probably the firm favourite. However if South Western Railway could avoid substantial extra spend on replacing/upgrading external power supplies to the line, then they might just choose the battery version and do all charging in Ryde where ample power is already available. (4) The obvious dark cloud is that everything still depends on D/Transport approving the proposal by the end of this year. In the meantime let us hope those 1938 stock units can soldier on into their 80th year of service... I hope someone in South Western Railway is planning quite a party on their last day in service. I will book my seat!
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 7, 2018 12:31:25 GMT
"significantly newer?". Given that the oldest passenger rolling stock in service other than the IOW only dates from the 1970s, it could hardly be anything else!
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on May 12, 2018 9:59:43 GMT
In the past BR did draw up detailed costings for line improvements. Whey they proved too costly, lines were closed.
If anyone cares to follow the the IoW replacement stock thread on RMweb, they will find on there a lengthy report from Mark Brinton showing stock profiles with a lengthy discussion on what will and won't fit as well as a lot of other stuff.
According to that thread, D stock will fit, but the track layout at Ryde Esplanade will have to be altered, with single-track through the tunnel to avoid clearance problems on the S bend in the tunnel. a loop would be re-instated elsewhere to allow a regular 30 minute headway instead of the 20/40 headway under the current arrangements.
There was also a proposal to use former Merseyside 503 units before the 38 stock was chosen.
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Post by spsmiler on May 12, 2018 20:39:57 GMT
503 units, wow!
I suppose that the 502's would have been too wide.
D stock, if it fits, would be great. Of course the battery option would be the most favourable but rather than introduce battery charging delays I'd retain the juice rail for at least part of the route and have the trains charge their batteries whilst in third rail mode.
With this style of operation the line would also become less likely to suffer from delays in snowy weather - so in many ways it would point to how the mainline could get around winter snow and ice issues and keep the trains running. That is until something like Brilliant Light Power comes along and (once proven viable) means that we don't need electric rails at all.
Simon
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Post by brigham on May 14, 2018 13:02:30 GMT
The diminutive 'new' Glasgow Subway stock is liable to become available before long. It would surely be within clearance for the IOW lines. It's built for the 4-foot gauge, but assuming the IOW uses wooden sleepers, re-gauging shouldn't take more than a week-end. The biggest problem, as I saw it, was the single-sided doors. I spent some time trying to work out ways of making-up trains with pairs of cars alternate-ways around, until the problem suddenly solved itself: The 'new' stock actually has doors on the tunnel side, as well as the platform side! This is good quality stock, and has seen none of the rigours of outdoor working. It could very well fit the bill.
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Post by domh245 on May 14, 2018 13:19:28 GMT
But if the D stock (again, available now) fits, why force the users of the Island line to use such small stock when they could have the far more generously sized D stocks. I certainly would think that putting things like bikes and buggies onboard will be far easier with D trains rather than the Glasgow stock.
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Post by brigham on May 14, 2018 13:54:32 GMT
It isn't a preference; it's a matter of exploring all options.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 14, 2018 13:56:31 GMT
It's built for the 4-foot gauge, but assuming the IOW uses wooden sleepers, re-gauging shouldn't take more than a week-end. Although it would put an end to the aspirations to run steam trains into Ryde. The 'new' stock actually has doors on the tunnel side, as well as the platform side! Single-sided carriages were a feature of the original line, on which all stations had island platforms and there was no way of switching between clockwise and anticlockwise lines other than a (literal) crane shunt via the depot, so separate fleets could be provided for the two directions. The 1977 revamp not only connected the depot in a more conventional way, but also rebuilt some of the stations with side platforms, so the 1977 stock has doors on both sides. This is good quality stock, and has seen none of the rigours of outdoor working. It wasn't designed for the rigours of outdoor working!
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Post by John Tuthill on May 14, 2018 14:55:59 GMT
It's built for the 4-foot gauge, but assuming the IOW uses wooden sleepers, re-gauging shouldn't take more than a week-end. Although it would put an end to the aspirations to run steam trains into Ryde. The 'new' stock actually has doors on the tunnel side, as well as the platform side! Single-sided carriages were a feature of the original line, on which all stations had island platforms and there was no way of switching between clockwise and anticlockwise lines other than a (literal) crane shunt via the depot, so separate fleets could be provided for the two directions. The 1977 revamp not only connected the depot in a more conventional way, but also rebuilt some of the stations with side platforms, so the 1977 stock has doors on both sides. This is goods quality stock, and has seen none of the rigours of outdoor working. It wasn't designed for the rigours of outdoor working! Just the rigours of inebriated Glaswegians
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Post by brigham on May 14, 2018 16:29:36 GMT
It had occurred to me that other operators may wish to apply for running powers, in which case an additional rail could be installed, rather than simply slewing the existing one. It probably renders the scheme less practical than many of the alternatives. I note that the surface contact system for street-running trams has re-emerged recently. This could prove an effective substitute for a continuous third rail on an otherwise-conventional railway.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on May 14, 2018 16:58:44 GMT
...assuming the IOW uses wooden sleepers, re-gauging shouldn't take more than a week-end. With all due respect, I suspect it would take at least a week to change the pointwork alone, never mind the running lines. If we accept your assumption about wooden, we also need to assume that the sleepers are in sufficiently good condition that they will take re-drilling.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 14, 2018 17:26:12 GMT
From looking at a selection of photos, it appears that the majority of the line used timber sleepers until at least 2016 (I've not found any suitable later photos) but there may be some concrete ones in the Ryde Esplanade area. The big problem with re-gauging though would be the pier, where the rails appear to be supported longitudinally. Changes to the track gauge may there require significant work to the pier substructure.
All told I think the most likely options for replacement stock on the island are D trains if they fit (there are many claims they do, but their reliability is unproven) or trains not previously used in Great Britain.
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Post by brigham on May 14, 2018 17:55:34 GMT
The reference to re-gauging taking 'a weekend' is a reference to the 170-odd miles of the Great Western Railway which were re-gauged over the week-end of Friday 20th May 1892 and the following Monday. It wasn't a proposed timetable!
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Post by crusty54 on May 14, 2018 19:07:56 GMT
The reference to re-gauging taking 'a weekend' is a reference to the 170-odd miles of the Great Western Railway which were re-gauged over the week-end of Friday 20th May 1892 and the following Monday. It wasn't a proposed timetable! not welded track of course
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Post by spsmiler on May 14, 2018 22:13:00 GMT
The diminutive 'new' Glasgow Subway stock is liable to become available before long. It would surely be within clearance for the IOW lines. It's built for the 4-foot gauge, but assuming the IOW uses wooden sleepers, re-gauging shouldn't take more than a week-end. The biggest problem, as I saw it, was the single-sided doors. I spent some time trying to work out ways of making-up trains with pairs of cars alternate-ways around, until the problem suddenly solved itself: The 'new' stock actually has doors on the tunnel side, as well as the platform side! This is good quality stock, and has seen none of the rigours of outdoor working. It could very well fit the bill. Yes, doors on both sides - and a few stations where this is essential. Are these trains suitable for outdoors? I ask because the Subway is wholly indoors / underground. Simon
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on May 15, 2018 18:15:06 GMT
I can assure you that regauging the line would take far more than a weekend. All the pointwork would have to be replaced as it is not simply a case of moving rails inwards, the geometry of the crossings would not then line up. I'm currently "regauging" a club layout from EM to 00 and that is no simple task. I've had to build all new track and rewire the layout, nothing lines up!
I'd suggest you all look at the more sensible ideas on RMweb.
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Post by christopher125 on May 18, 2018 17:36:33 GMT
All told I think the most likely options for replacement stock on the island are D trains if they fit (there are many claims they do, but their reliability is unproven) or trains not previously used in Great Britain. A couple of weeks back Adrian Shooter himself confirmed that they fit in the Q+A that followed his talk to the LTM Friends - everything would appear to suggest that they are SWR's preferred option that they'll be submitting to the DfT:
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