Electrification of Heritage Services

People are explaining very convincing arguments using facts and references for both sides of this. Ultimately though, isn't the reality of the situation that any such project will by necessity involve highly paid legal minds/civil servants with oodles of experience to argue the case for or against as is perceived necessary per case? The yes/yes*/no*/no decision comes down ultimately to what the most authoritative and convincing argument is, as made by a group of people who's job it is to push such things through/forward/back.

Apologies if my post appears, blunt and brutal, however this is the cold reality we live in...

A line where former LU stock can travel under it's own motive power is, in my opinion/knowledge, a pipe dream. The only likely place/route would have been the Epping to Ongar line... and that was targeted for closure for many years by LU, because it lost money, hand over fist. No-one needs to look very far (Google) for evidence of that.

As part of my extra-curricular role (writing for Rail Express), I deal with numerous senior persons in LU, TfL and heritage lines. Running a railway is never cheap. It's arduous, time consuming and quite rightly, comes with regulation, protection for the those that use it and work on it. Everyday passengers are a joy, however then you have to deal with the average, common or garden trespasser, not to mention those that think that graffiti-ing, damaging or destroying your railway is a fun hobby and a great idea. Sometimes is very difficult to tell the difference between a trespasser and an idiotic trainspotter or two with suicidal tendencies.

If a line, such as the EOR were to return to 3rd/4th rail operation:

• who will undertake the upgrade work (inexperienced volunteers, however motivated, are unlikely to have the necessary experience/qualifications) ?
• how will the 3rd/4th rails be maintained (inspections and repairs whether used or not) + how will the associated costs and funding be achieved ?
• given the cost of LU operation was at a loss, how can the EOR or a.n.other railway, with even occasional use/power applied, make a profit so that they can operate former LU stock that also need to be funded so every car can be restored/maintained ?
• what would be the cost of insurance for any private railway to operate 3rd / 4th rail power ?
• who would pay for any accidental death / electrocution, if liability against the railway were found by a court and what might be the future implications ?

LU rightly concentrates on the everyday paying passenger, given that funding has been slashed from central Government. Even very occasional specials need to be supported by enthusiasts and then fit in between normal services. Unless huge levels (£ multi-millions) of investment commences and continues to be forthcoming from the enthusiast community, the current situation will remain. Unless the London Transport Museum can fund projects (they have themselves received funding cuts), older rolling stock will be withdrawn and scrapped with one or perhaps two cars being saved.

It is very easy to compare LU with railways such as Berlin's U-Bahn with heritage railway stock, however if any other railway faces exactly the same long-term passenger growth pressures and most importantly the poor fiscal situation, we can compare. Until they do, I'm afraid we have the enjoy what we have and we as enthusiasts need to support LU / the LTM.

I have said this (posted) before and undoubtedly will do again. If anyone is able to invest please contact me as I am in the fortunate position to be able to put you directly in touch with representatives of the LTM and LU.

I posted a similar message around Christmas time, however never received a single PM back. That tells me all I need to know... and the reality we all need to face, as enthusiasts.

Very interesting topic, but I do have to grab onto an earlier reply:


Well.... if the overhead is energized with a far higher voltage than a 3rd rail, it may be a more efficient in delivering power to the trainset, otherwise, and absent other info, I'd call it a wash with the possible advantage to the 3rd rail as a better conductor. (No argument on the more-dangerous part, or on the use of MV for long-distance/main-line trains.) When discussing heritage lines which were probably worked at 600vdc (give or take), I don't think it matters.

It may be interesting that the Western Rail Museum near San Francisco has 600vdc wire over about 5.5 miles of track which they maintain themselves, only hiring in help for the 13kv feeders and MV switchgear.

z!

I very much agree with Chris W.

Not just for financial reasons but also for sheer practicality and safety.

However, perhaps it could work with 'electric' rails that are there for cosmetic reasons - and not actually live.

As I said in an earlier message in this thread, a much safer (etc) solution would be to use batteries or even diesel generators (inside train or on trailers).

This could even lead to preserved London Underground (and other electric rail powered) trains being able to carry passengers! Vivarail battery D Stock in what is otherwise 'as withdrawn' condition? Or how about a conversion of the preserved Cravens 1960 tube stock train?

The film below (not mine) of a French museum railway using a preserved iconic Sprague Parisian metro train shows what I have in mind... its the best that we can hope for and in my view what the Bluebell Railway should do with a preserved Southern unit... as well as (perhaps) some ex-LT rolling stock.

When the Cravens 60TS visited the EOR a few years back, the batteries were charged overnight so the doors would work.

To ensure that the charge wasn't wasted, the lights remained off when passengers were travelling along the line, as was the air conditioning (very limited anyway in the 60TS DMs).

Travelling in them with Mel + the boys during a very hot day, the sweat just poured out of everyone as we were shunted west of North Weald station, before returning some 20 mins later, much smellier than when we had embarked :-o

Heritage railways are struggling to find volunteers as the existing ones literally die out. Like churches, music societies, history societies, civic societies all have trouble getting new members and even harder to get their current members to serve on committies.

I think its the ride in the type of train, hearing its unique 'noises', etc

Short of a heritage railway having access to a subterranean section of railway (yes, *very* unlikely) the true Underground experience will be impossible to recreate. The best we can hope for in this respect are tunnels on heritage lines (eg: the Bluebell railway) and even on the north curve when travelling between Amersham and Watford.

Simon

And alas most of the "fans" that are out there prefer the comfort of being at home with a keyboard to a draughty carriage-shed de-greasing an underframe.

I do one or two days a month myself as a booking office clerk. It's not a huge expense - and it's good for your CV.

There is a shortage of people in most if not all interests who are willing to get involved in running or organising things.

Pushing this somewhere in the vague area of the original topic one issue overlooked is the physical storage space required. An EMU takes up a lot of track space compared with a loco or an individual hauled coach.

Government papers are usually released after thirty years, so 2028.

Was that during Pilot's laughable tenure?

I’m surprised LU didn’t lift the conductor rails.