class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 17, 2017 9:57:17 GMT
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 17, 2017 11:04:44 GMT
A bit like the Hayes and Harlington incident where the woman stuck her hand in the doors while they were closing but the driver still got a "door closed visual" in the cab. Platform mounted mirrors and monitors are fine until the train moves, after that the driver can't see anything that's going on behind them.
Here's the platform CCTV
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Post by theblackferret on Jul 17, 2017 11:51:41 GMT
Have to say I find the BBC report of this loaded if not pejorative towards the driver.
Incidentally, is it just me, or do Rome's metro trains seem to move away faster than ours?
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Post by trt on Jul 17, 2017 12:09:15 GMT
Pejorative to the person who looked like they were eating from a noodle box or something in the cab? That video looks horrific. The report says she's in intensive care. He might have checked his mirrors twice, but this is EXACTLY the kind of adjustment to procedure the ORR suggests for DOOP. Do they have the equivalent of the RAIB over there?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jul 17, 2017 12:31:47 GMT
All EU countries must have a railway safety investigation organisation, the RAIB fulfils this role in the UK. In Italy it is Agenzia Nazionale per la Sicurezza delle Ferrovie (ANSF) - the National Railways Safety Agency. Their English website gives an introduction to their role. |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 17, 2017 13:25:45 GMT
The passenger boarded and then got off again using the rear doors of the rear car, with mirrors by the headwall it would be impossible to see that someone had their bag caught in the doors from that distance - its hard enough to spot it with four CCTV cameras covering eight Central Line cars and an in-cab monitor - with the "door closed visual" illuminated in the cab as far as the driver can tell she was clear of the doors.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 17, 2017 13:36:21 GMT
What the report does not explain is how she got free (the report does say she was not dragged into the tunnel). The accelerative force of a modern electric train, particular a metro train is considerable so, with the sheer terror of what was happening, it's hard to imagine she could have extricated herself. Possibly as the drag increased with speed the strap simply snapped.
And I agree with the poster who said that the report was extremely focused on the driver whose eating prior to departure should have had nothing to do with the accident.
It would not surprise me if he was made a scapegoat for all the real failings in the system in question.
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Post by trt on Jul 17, 2017 13:39:06 GMT
Good point, class411. I hope they don't get help as a scapegoat instead of addressing the management issues. There are many failings I suspect, including possibly one about food in the cab. Is there a rule about that on LUL?
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Post by 35b on Jul 17, 2017 14:29:07 GMT
Have to say I find the BBC report of this loaded if not pejorative towards the driver. Incidentally, is it just me, or do Rome's metro trains seem to move away faster than ours? You might want to read the Times' coverage. If the driver's quote is accurate, it begs some definite questions about the safety culture. |
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Post by brigham on Jul 18, 2017 11:22:14 GMT
Some would suggest that such a train is simply too long to be observed from the front only, and that a second look-out should be located near to the rear.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 18, 2017 13:05:52 GMT
Anyone with an IQ in double figures could see that such a train is simply too long to be observed from the front only, and that a second look-out should be located near to the rear. FIxed your post. |
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Post by superteacher on Jul 18, 2017 13:18:15 GMT
Anyone with an IQ in double figures could see that such a train is simply too long to be observed from the front only, and that a second look-out should be located near to the rear. Fixed your post.
And it's such a sweeping statement - have you actually been in the cab of a Rome metro train to check this for yourself?
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 18, 2017 16:38:11 GMT
Mod comment: Please do not change the content of quotes. If you want to say something, do it under your own name.
And it's such a sweeping statement - have you actually been in the cab of a Rome metro train to check this for yourself?
Sorry, this is a very standard technique on many forums and it's generally not possible to determine (or remember) if it's use is deprecated on any specific one. The highlighting of changed text by enboldening makes it quite clear what has been changed, but if it is against the rules of this forum, so be it. Yes, it's a sweeping statement, but it only reflects the statement that someone on many metros around the world must have made - i.e. something along the lines of: "Oh, you don't need someone on the platform to make sure everything is safe, the driver can do that from his cab". And I'd bet good money that the person who made that statement and those who acted on it did not check every station with every type of applicable stock to ensure that it was safe (The clue is in the CCTV footage in this thread). (Yes, I appreciate that in this case it may well not have made any difference since the train's safety systems seem to have been completely b*ggered up.) |
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Post by rincew1nd on Jul 19, 2017 21:37:59 GMT
Mod comment: Please do not change the content of quotes. If you want to say something, do it under your own name. Sorry, this is a very standard technique on many forums and it's generally not possible to determine (or remember) if it's use is deprecated on any specific one. The highlighting of changed text by enboldening makes it quite clear what has been changed, but if it is against the rules of this forum, so be it. Rule 6c of the forum rules states (in its entirety): (6c) Quotes must not be edited to change the context of what the original poster posted. If a quote(s) originates from elsewhere, the source should be credited and, if applicable, a hyperlink inserted. Some would suggest that such a train is simply too long to be observed from the front only, and that a second look-out should be located near to the rear. Surely you mean: " Anyone with an IQ in double figures could see that such a train is simply too long to be observed from the front only, and that a second look-out should be located near to the rear." |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 20, 2017 8:07:47 GMT
Sorry, this is a very standard technique on many forums and it's generally not possible to determine (or remember) if it's use is deprecated on any specific one. The highlighting of changed text by enboldening makes it quite clear what has been changed, but if it is against the rules of this forum, so be it. Rule 6c of the forum rules states (in its entirety): Oops! Yes, you're quite correct. The 'FYP' style is not really appropriate for serious subjects. Apologies. |
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Post by spsmiler on Jul 21, 2017 0:00:16 GMT
(my opinion, I accept that not everyone will agree, especially those have authorised 12 coach DOO Thameslink trains)
I also feel that someone at or near the back of the train whose duties include watching out for instances such as this would have been very useful.
Of course it may only be once a month (or even less frequently)that they need to stop the train an emergency situation, nevertheless the benefit justifies the cost.
Simon
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 21, 2017 5:04:18 GMT
I also feel that someone at or near the back of the train whose duties include watching out for instances such as this would have been very useful. Simon Presumably said person would be observing from an open door/window which potentially could put them at risk ? Most modern NR trains (e.g. SWT 450s) the second member of Staff is unable to view the platform upon departure, as the doors must be closed. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 21, 2017 7:02:23 GMT
I also feel that someone at or near the back of the train whose duties include watching out for instances such as this would have been very useful. Simon Presumably said person would be observing from an open door/window which potentially could put them at risk ? Most modern NR trains (e.g. SWT 450s) the second member of Staff is unable to view the platform upon departure, as the doors must be closed. Surely the obvious solution is to have a number of cameras monitoring the side of the train fed into a split screen in the driver's cab. Technically, it would be a piece of cake. (Relatively speaking.) |
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Post by 35b on Jul 21, 2017 7:07:36 GMT
Presumably said person would be observing from an open door/window which potentially could put them at risk ? Most modern NR trains (e.g. SWT 450s) the second member of Staff is unable to view the platform upon departure, as the doors must be closed. Surely the obvious solution is to have a number of cameras monitoring the side of the train fed into a split screen in the driver's cab. Technically, it would be a piece of cake. (Relatively speaking.) Given the strict rules about distractions in cab, that raises interesting questions about where drivers' focus will be on departure, and also what they can reasonably be expected to see. After two recent cases on Merseyside (one conviction, one acquittal), it would appear that the legal risks to drivers around despatch are concentrating a few minds. |
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Post by North End on Jul 21, 2017 8:36:44 GMT
Presumably said person would be observing from an open door/window which potentially could put them at risk ? Most modern NR trains (e.g. SWT 450s) the second member of Staff is unable to view the platform upon departure, as the doors must be closed. Surely the obvious solution is to have a number of cameras monitoring the side of the train fed into a split screen in the driver's cab. Technically, it would be a piece of cake. (Relatively speaking.) Currently any in-cab monitors on mainline trains switch off pretty much as the train starts. The dispatch process is very much centred on the 'train safety check' - the period between the doors becoming closed and the point when the train starts to move. LU's process is worded differently but the end result is the same, especially on the lines which don't have any in-cab monitors. Having monitors working as the train departs the platform only happens on LU because it's been that way since the 1990s and LU has at least some form of ATP system everywhere. Nonetheless monitors still serve as a distraction, and are often recorded as a contributory factor in operating incidents particularly SPADs. FNX.640A approaching London Bridge used to be a favourite for this; the repeater was close to Borough platform and if missed showing yellow it as near as guaranteed a near full-speed SPAD. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Jul 21, 2017 9:09:19 GMT
Perhaps, then, they need to think outside the box.
Possibly heat sensors fitted over the doors that detect if a heat source outside is maintaining a fixed position wrt the train once it starts moving.
I'm sure the combined wisdom of LU and suppliers engineers could come up with a solution.
Or, maybe they don't think it's that important? Although I seem to remember a few close shaves.
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Post by Chris M on Jul 21, 2017 10:11:49 GMT
A different alternative would be to show the monitor feed to a second member of staff who could stop the train if they saw an incident occurring.
This would require them to be in a fixed point on the train for every departure (either rear cab or secondman's seat would seem the most practical), rather than assisting passengers/checking tickets and so would probably not be popular with cost-focused managers.
A third solution would be for a member of station (or control room) staff to observe every train departure and have the ability to immediately stop a train.
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Post by superteacher on Jul 21, 2017 10:16:09 GMT
A different alternative would be to show the monitor feed to a second member of staff who could stop the train if they saw an incident occurring. This would require them to be in a fixed point on the train for every departure (either rear cab or secondman's seat would seem the most practical), rather than assisting passengers/checking tickets and so would probably not be popular with cost-focused managers. A third solution would be for a member of station (or control room) staff to observe every train departure and have the ability to immediately stop a train. You may as well bring back guards then. |
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Post by domh245 on Jul 21, 2017 10:25:32 GMT
Best way of preventing trap and drag incidents must surely be Platform edge doors?
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Post by superteacher on Jul 21, 2017 10:32:31 GMT
Best way of preventing trap and drag incidents must surely be Platform edge doors? Very hard and expensive to retrofit them though. If the platform isn't dead straight, it's nigh on impossible. |
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Post by brigham on Jul 21, 2017 10:56:15 GMT
There's no limit to the ingenuity when it involves keeping someone out of a job.
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Post by rincew1nd on Jul 21, 2017 11:28:33 GMT
This would require them to be in a fixed point on the train for every departure (either rear cab or secondman's seat would seem the most practical), rather than assisting passengers/checking tickets and so would probably not be popular with cost-focused managers. Not necessarily, just stream it to a tablet computer. |
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Post by Chris M on Jul 21, 2017 12:23:00 GMT
This would require them to be in a fixed point on the train for every departure (either rear cab or secondman's seat would seem the most practical), rather than assisting passengers/checking tickets and so would probably not be popular with cost-focused managers. Not necessarily, just stream it to a tablet computer. I wondered about that, but then you have an issue of scale - even on a large screen tablet computer the view from twelve (or even six) cameras are going to be small, meaning that seeing a particular incident is going to be tricky. You may as well bring back guards then. Yes, it is exactly a guard's role - just updated to use technology (images from multiple bodyside cameras streamed to the train interior) rather than a single view from the mark 1 eyeball gained from leaning out a window or door (with all the risks that entails). |
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Post by North End on Jul 21, 2017 13:20:48 GMT
Perhaps, then, they need to think outside the box. Possibly heat sensors fitted over the doors that detect if a heat source outside is maintaining a fixed position wrt the train once it starts moving. I'm sure the combined wisdom of LU and suppliers engineers could come up with a solution. Or, maybe they don't think it's that important? Although I seem to remember a few close shaves. LU already has mitigations - older trains have pushback and newer trains have sensitive edge. Pushback certainly isn't always effective in preventing a dragging, partly because people generally don't know about it and partly because it requires some physical force to be exerted on the door. I've never looked into how effective sensitive edge has proved to be - anyone know of any dragging incidents on the 09 or S stocks? Mainline trains are more at risk - their doors lock shut and have no sensitive edge system. |
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cso
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Post by cso on Jul 21, 2017 14:33:32 GMT
Mainline trains are more at risk - their doors lock shut and have no sensitive edge system. It has happened too - Hayes & Harlington for example. |
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