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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 12, 2017 14:21:26 GMT
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Post by tjw on Apr 12, 2017 17:50:24 GMT
I thought they were short of money... Ah well more standing room in the peak then.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Apr 12, 2017 21:17:08 GMT
They are short of money, but legislation (I forget which bit specifically) means that all trains have to be accessible to disabled people by a certain date (2019?). The choice for TfL therefore was (a) buy new trains, or (b) modify the existing ones. It seems that they've decided the latter option is the better value for money.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 12, 2017 21:21:38 GMT
I thought they were short of money... Ah well more standing room in the peak then. I think there is a key sentence in the press release: It's only the design work that has been contracted out, LU are actually doing the work themselves - I suspect this will reduce the overall cost but still keep the advantages of contracting out some of the work.
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Post by DWS on Apr 13, 2017 8:22:47 GMT
New build of a shed in Acton Works is going ahead for this work to be done in house. The site is a group of open sidings , to enable the construction the sidings will have to be cleared of redundant rolling stock currently stored there. The April issue of Underground News has a photo of the trains which include Tube and Surface stocks.
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 13, 2017 9:10:32 GMT
The Bakerloo line has only 2 stations with wheelchair symbols - Wembley Central and Harrow & Wealdstone. Both only platform/street and with step down into the train so standard ramps wouldn't work.
These would only be accessible from same level interchange at Oxford Circus (Victoria line) and Baker Street (Jubilee line).
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Post by tjw on Apr 13, 2017 9:34:43 GMT
The Bakerloo line has only 2 stations with wheelchair symbols - Wembley Central and Harrow & Wealdstone. Both only platform/street and with step down into the train so standard ramps wouldn't work. These would only be accessible from same level interchange at Oxford Circus (Victoria line) and Baker Street (Jubilee line). Excellent so there will be a space for a wheelchair, but no way of getting on the train or even the platform. Great!
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Post by Chris M on Apr 13, 2017 9:57:46 GMT
As ever disability is a lot more complicated than just person confined to a wheelchair. There are people who can manage a single step like that, but who need a wheelchair for distance. Such a step would not be a hindrance for buggy users either. There is also other work being done on the trains that will assist those who have accessibility issues unrelated to steps (the visually impaired for example).
You also need to look more closely at what step-free access is available, and will be available before the trains are replaced. There is same-direction interchange at Queen's Park, Baker Street and Oxford Circus. Crossrail will be bringing step-free access at Paddington shortly, and a redevelopment at Elephant and Castle is due which might happen within the lifetime of the current stock. I seem to remember something about Waterloo too but I'm not sure.
The wheelchair symbols on the main tube map are really of very little use for determining whether a station is accessible to a specific person or not (to the extent of being misleading at times). Why TfL persist in it I'm not sure, rather than promoting the two separate "step-free tube guide" and "avoiding stairs tube guide" which go into much more detail.
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 13, 2017 10:55:04 GMT
As ever disability is a lot more complicated than just person confined to a wheelchair. There are people who can manage a single step like that, but who need a wheelchair for distance. Such a step would not be a hindrance for buggy users either. There is also other work being done on the trains that will assist those who have accessibility issues unrelated to steps (the visually impaired for example). You also need to look more closely at what step-free access is available, and will be available before the trains are replaced. There is same-direction interchange at Queen's Park, Baker Street and Oxford Circus. Crossrail will be bringing step-free access at Paddington shortly, and a redevelopment at Elephant and Castle is due which might happen within the lifetime of the current stock. I seem to remember something about Waterloo too but I'm not sure. The wheelchair symbols on the main tube map are really of very little use for determining whether a station is accessible to a specific person or not (to the extent of being misleading at times). Why TfL persist in it I'm not sure, rather than promoting the two separate "step-free tube guide" and "avoiding stairs tube guide" which go into much more detail. Part of the work is to create wheelchair positions on the trains. This was my reason for the comment. Buggies are a different issue and creating the space will help clear the door areas. I mentioned access via Oxford Circus and Baker Street. Even then you are limited to points of origin from the south - Brixton, Morden (via Stockwell), Green Park and Victoria There is a scheme for lifts at Queen's Park and you are right about Paddington.
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Post by dmncf on Apr 13, 2017 12:54:22 GMT
You also need to look more closely at what step-free access is available, and will be available before the trains are replaced. There is same-direction interchange at Queen's Park, Baker Street and Oxford Circus. Crossrail will be bringing step-free access at Paddington shortly, and a redevelopment at Elephant and Castle is due which might happen within the lifetime of the current stock. I seem to remember something about Waterloo too but I'm not sure. The step-free, same direction interchanges at Baker Street and Oxford Circus provide valuable access to step-free stations further south on the Jubilee and Victoria lines respectively. Willesden Junction Station is also shown on the Tube map as having step-free access to the Bakerloo line platforms, but the vertical gap downward from platform to train is enormous. The platforms would benefit from an inverted version of a platform hump (i.e. platforms dips), perhaps providing access to door positions that are present on Bakerloo line trains but are not present on the higher-floor London Overground trains.
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Post by MoreToJack on Apr 13, 2017 13:50:42 GMT
Remember too that most (all?) Victoria line stations have platform humps - even if the same-direction step-free interchange only has a limited scope, it's not impossible to go one stop further on the Vic and return, opening up further accessible stations still.
The fact that the Bakerloo line is the 'poor relation' to step-free is neither here nor there. The fact is that, by 2020, all vehicles must be accessible - this is not negotiable. The work has to be carried out and, once it is, it also provides more of an incentive to add further station step-free infrastructure.
The point that step-free access is not just for wheelchair users has already been made, as have the other space benefits of accessible areas on board the trains.
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 14, 2017 21:39:24 GMT
I would have thought that to comply with the law only one car (carriage, coach) per train needs to have the available space for the wheelchairs. Therefore LU could reduce costs (and annoying able-bodied passengers who would have got a seat) by only fitting a wheelchair bay in one car per train.
Simon
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Post by rsdworker on Apr 14, 2017 22:10:31 GMT
the watterloo bakerloo has step free only southbound so connection from there is jubilee line lift which takes them up to street or down to JLE platforms
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Post by MoreToJack on Apr 14, 2017 22:59:16 GMT
I would have thought that to comply with the law only one car (carriage, coach) per train needs to have the available space for the wheelchairs. Therefore LU could reduce costs (and annoying able-bodied passengers who would have got a seat) by only fitting a wheelchair bay in one car per train. Simon This would work for lines such as the Jubilee or Bakerloo where trains do not get turned. But what do you do on the others when the train is reversed and all your humps now don't line up...?
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Post by xercesfobe on Apr 15, 2017 7:29:25 GMT
When will something be done about prams on escalators that are precariously balanced on one step with a a child or two on board? This is an accident waiting to happen. Maybe a training course on how to fold and unfold a pram might well be good idea!
XF
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 15, 2017 7:32:23 GMT
That could work on the 1972 stock, as each train is made up of a 3-car and 4-car unit, so you could put a wheelchair space in, say one car of each 4-car unit. But on the Central the four units making up each train are interchangeable, apart from the obvious requirement that the two end units must have a cab, and you would lose operating flexibility if only some units had wheelchair spaces. You might fit a wheelchair space only in the cabbed units, as then each train would have two (and a few would have three)
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Post by tjw on Apr 15, 2017 8:57:21 GMT
When will something be done about prams on escalators that are precariously balanced on one step with a a child or two on board? This is an accident waiting to happen. Maybe a training course on how to fold and unfold a pram might well be good idea! You could do with training courses for those that use the buses... As a parent one of the problems with prams is they are loaded with more than just children. Also some prams / push chairs are not easy to fold and impossible to carry, while holding shopping and a small child. Training courses a not likely to happen, also what about stairs they have a similar risk? A ban might be able to be enforced at some stage, but this will need an accessible network which is unlikely even in the distant future. The problem with the Railways in London is they are designed to carry large numbers of able bodied people quickly from A to B. This is their main job and they do it very well, even when grossly overloaded. Trying to make them accessible to all is an impossible task. New lines are another matter, and in some way it would be better and cheaper to end the access for all scheme and use the money to fund new lines that will be fully accessible.
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Post by superteacher on Apr 15, 2017 10:03:36 GMT
<<Let's not allow this to turn into a general discussion about disabled access, thanks.>>
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2017 16:47:46 GMT
I ask why are LU wasting money in modifying the Bakerloo trains in respect of legislation which will be repealed in 2019 at the latest, and that the trains have limited life left in them, and run on a line with stations having no step free access for most of the length of the Bakerloo?
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 15, 2017 17:27:41 GMT
I ask why are LU wasting money in modifying the Bakerloo trains in respect of legislation which will be repealed in 2019 at the latest, and that the trains have limited life left in them, and run on a line with stations having no step free access for most of the length of the Bakerloo? What makes you think the Equality Act 2010 will be repealed?
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Post by MoreToJack on Apr 15, 2017 18:32:14 GMT
Let's stop this one right here. No politics.
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 15, 2017 18:57:49 GMT
Let's stop this one right here. No politics. A member of forum staff asked quite nicely that this not become a thread about the merits of equal access, any further posts pushing the discussion in this direction will result in this thread being locked.
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Post by aslefshrugged on Apr 15, 2017 23:26:09 GMT
I think you are going to have to accept at some point that transport is a political issue, that politics plays a huge part in our public transport network and that ignoring that fact is just ridiculous.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2017 0:19:13 GMT
I think you are going to have to accept at some point that transport is a political issue, that politics plays a huge part in our public transport network and that ignoring that fact is just ridiculous. Especially so as TfL (and most Train Operating Companies) is currently very heavily subsidised. As well as a lot of buses, ferries and whatever else.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 16, 2017 6:45:35 GMT
Let's keep this thread about the changes being made to the trains, not the politics behind those changes.
It seems pointless to speculate on what the law might be in two years' time. As things stand, they need to be compliant by some date in the near future, and that is what LUL are working towards. The law might be changed to make those changes unnecessary (or indeed, as happened with the 458s' visual display units, inadequate) but LUL can't afford to risk that - with no alternative stock available that would mean shutting down the line.
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Post by metman on Apr 16, 2017 7:41:42 GMT
I can see the 92 ts being very difficult to modify for the changes. I like the plan of having assessable areas in the DMs as has been said there will always be one at each end. Theses areas tend to be quieter too. Many of the central line platforms have access at the ends too which may or may not help.
I thought the 43XX trailer on the 72 ts was going to be modified?
What is happening to the stock stables on the roads at Acton where the sheds are going to be built?!
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Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 16, 2017 9:01:09 GMT
What is happening to the stock stables on the roads at Acton where the sheds are going to be built?! "to be disposed of" , although not '62 Stock RAT or D Stock RAT. hence the recent photo in Underground News !!
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Apr 16, 2017 9:13:13 GMT
What is happening to the stock stables on the roads at Acton where the sheds are going to be built?! "to be disposed of" , although not '62 Stock RAT or D Stock RAT. hence the recent photo in Underground News !! Disposed of , this is LUL code for being scrapped 🙄🙄
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Post by Chris M on Apr 16, 2017 10:01:55 GMT
"to be disposed of" , although not '62 Stock RAT or D Stock RAT. hence the recent photo in Underground News !! Disposed of , this is LUL code for being scrapped 🙄🙄 If you want to offer to purchase one or more units then that will probably be considered.
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Post by rincew1nd on Apr 16, 2017 10:57:34 GMT
Let's keep this thread about the changes being made to the trains, not the politics behind those changes. Exactly
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