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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 16, 2023 8:17:03 GMT
Unfortunately the platform describers in the whole SSR CBTC area are letting the side down this morning, mostly just showing the Line name and direction, with occasional flashes of the correct information! They were working accurately yesterday.
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Post by d7666 on Jan 16, 2023 11:51:06 GMT
And the cause is within the central CBTC kit at HSCC before any data gets to the central CIS kit (also at HSCC). Underlying issue identified yesterday; it needs a Canada fix.
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Post by Chris L on Jan 16, 2023 13:52:41 GMT
Unfortunately the platform describers in the whole SSR CBTC area are letting the side down this morning, mostly just showing the Line name and direction, with occasional flashes of the correct information! They were working accurately yesterday. And the cause is within the central CBTC kit at HSCC before any data gets to the central CIS kit (also at HSCC). Underlying issue identified yesterday; it needs a Canada fix. Hammersmith Service Control Centre?
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Post by david123 on Jan 16, 2023 15:11:29 GMT
And the stations such as Bow Road, Bromley By Bow, Becontree, are the DMI now announcing the next trains etc? because soon as Whitechapel section went live, the DMI audio kicked it.
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Post by tarq on Jan 17, 2023 16:39:51 GMT
I passed through Bow Rd this morning and the DMIs were still inaccurate and no auto audio announcements (other than the usual manually recorded service updates). Shame as I was hoping that the SMA6 go live would fix this.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jan 17, 2023 17:21:47 GMT
Almost four years since the new system started out from Hammersmith. It's worth bearing in mind that the project lost the best part of nine months thanks to Covid.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jan 17, 2023 17:25:50 GMT
[Underlying issue identified yesterday; it needs a Canada fix. If only there was a meme for this very situation. Oh, there is...
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Post by ijmad on Jan 17, 2023 17:29:45 GMT
The Wimbledon branch service to Edgware Road has always been a responsibility of District Line west end train crews, before, during and since C stock. My apologies, must be misremembering something I thought I'd read once. Thanks for the correction.
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Post by jimbo on Jan 18, 2023 3:45:38 GMT
Almost four years since the new system started out from Hammersmith. It's worth bearing in mind that the project lost the best part of nine months thanks to Covid. I wondered how late delivery of the new signalling system now is. So, when was it due? Various dates were published before the contract was signed, but may have originated from only one side. The subsequent first table of delivery dates came from the TfL Finance and Policy Committee meeting paper dated 21 January 2016, and appeared in the April 2016 Underground News. The Hammersmith area was then 90% certain by July 2018, with Barking by October 2019, and Uxbridge by May 2022, so under four years in all. The full three-hour peaks of 32tph in the central area with 28tph on the Metropolitan line from Baker Street was not then expected until May 2023, with off-peak service enhancements from December 2023. Currently service enhancements must await the return of passengers, and available finance. Hammersmith area was not actually commissioned until March 2019, so 8 months late. Barking has just been commissioned, so 3¼ years late. The final section of signalling, between Rayners Lane and Uxbridge, is now expected to go live between spring and autumn 2025, as advised to the TfL Programmes and Investment Committee on 20 July 2022, so some 3 years late, and six years since the first area. But in the original schedule the outer Met areas would have followed upon completion of the west end of the District Line.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jan 18, 2023 11:03:05 GMT
I wondered how late delivery of the new signalling system now is. As you went on to suggest, various dates have been set and missed over the past few years. Resignalling the SSR is a massive project and it was always going to be subject to many strands needing to fall into place just right for the plan to work. The main three elements are physical installation, testing with test train operators and staff training for service control, trains and station staff. There's a lot to co-ordinate in order to achieve just-in-time staff training and implementation of each SMA (Signalling Migration Area). I'm just a humble driver by my take on it is this....... I think it's fair to say the choice of tags & aerials over the "traditional" inductive loop cable system has presented challenges that have ended up causing a fair amount of delay to the project. Indeed it was an issue with tags that was responsible for the initial false start and significant delay to the first section going live between Hammersmith & Latimer Road. I'm not suggesting it was the wrong choice to use the tag & aerial system at all. Indeed the inductive cable system used on the Jubilee and Northern lines has been subject to damage on a frequent basis so it absolutely makes sense to remove the problem by using tags and aerials instead. Presumably this is the first time the tag & aerial solution has been used so its perhaps inevitable that there'd be some learning involved in getting it to work as intended. But the technology isn't entirely to blame. As already acknowledged, Covid caused significant delays. Covid affected many strands of the project - not just the physical installation of the system but testing couldn't take place due to social distancing limitations on train cab access and driver training similarly couldn't take place due to social distance restrictions affecting classroom based training. SMA3 was a particular challenge to introduce on the District line (Stepney Green to Monument) as we'd always provided in cab instructor support and Covid meant that wasn't possible for the District's east end drivers (the west drivers did at least have some experience of the system between Paddington & Edgware Road). There was much union resistance to going live with instructors only supporting drivers by remaining static on platforms; this meant there was much "umming and arring" before the decision was made to go for it. In the end the District line's east end drivers commendably got on with it. Most of the SSR's signalling migrations have gone live with little in the way of issues being identified but SMA3 did highlight a boundary issue at Monument that could have gone on to impact further SMA's. Thanks to quick identification and a relatively straight forward solution it didn't delay things further. The same cannot be said for SMA5 (Sloane Square - Paddington/Fulham Broadway/Barons Court) which did throw up some issues that have taken time to overcome. Quite rightly the introduction of SMA6 (Stepney Green to Becontree) was delayed whilst fixes where developed and implemented. Whenever a fix is software based, the new coding has to be written by Thales in Canada then tested on the real railway in London. This can take some time to get right and its absolutely right that the project doesn't plough on regardless leaving a trail of issues that need fixing in its wake. The proof in the pudding is SMA6 (Stepney Green to Becontree) going live last weekend, and aside from an initial issue at Hammersmith control centre which was quickly identified and fixed, no issues with the system have been identified to my knowledge. I think the saying "slow and steady wins the race" is particularly apt when looking at the introduction of CBTC onto the SSR!
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Post by A60stock on Jan 18, 2023 11:41:35 GMT
When is the next area of the Met , north of Finchley Road due to go live?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 18, 2023 12:32:23 GMT
When is the next area of the Met , north of Finchley Road due to go live? SMA 8 Finchley Road-Preston Road is proposed for 24/25 February 2024
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Post by A60stock on Jan 18, 2023 14:07:57 GMT
I believe that will result in fast trains being halted at preston road (south and northbound?) to switch over. I am hoping this arrangement would not last too long?
Also, what precautions will be in place to prevent drivers going southbound on the fasts from passing the switchover point without stopping?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jan 18, 2023 14:42:24 GMT
Also, what precautions will be in place to prevent drivers going southbound on the fasts from passing the switchover point without stopping? The same mitigation as at every other CBTC boundary location - a red signal and three train stops.
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Post by A60stock on Jan 18, 2023 16:44:05 GMT
I was under the impression that as other boundaries are at stations, where trains usually have to crawl through anyway to pass if they arent stopping, its quite easy to prevent much of an overrun, however in this case, it will be at a point where trains are travelling upto 60/70mph so it would be quite an overrun if a driver forgot about the switchover.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 18, 2023 18:02:16 GMT
Current maximum speed is 60mph Southbound Signal A651 would be at danger, signal FR651 would be yellow, signal A653 would be green with associated repeating signal R651 at yellow. Current maximum speed is 50mph Northbound, the train would be in CBTC.
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Post by jimbo on Jan 18, 2023 20:24:45 GMT
There must have been a big difference in costs between both systems on the outer sections with greater distances between stations, such as the outer-Met. That would have been a lot of 'wiggly wire' to lay, especially on the four track sections.
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Post by d7666 on Jan 18, 2023 21:45:12 GMT
There must have been a big difference in costs between both systems on the outer sections with greater distances between stations, such as the outer-Met. That would have been a lot of 'wiggly wire' to lay, especially on the four track sections. The first T in TBTC is wiggly wire the first C in CBTC is wifi. AFAIK trackside wifi antennae require uniform spacing irrespective of traffic level or route distance because wifi has a finite range - this kit is expensive. Tags are low cost all but throw away mass produced items. Don't tell signals people I said that. And there are just as many axle counters with CBTC as TBTC.
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Post by silenthunter on Jan 18, 2023 21:53:42 GMT
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Post by t697 on Jan 18, 2023 22:09:37 GMT
There must have been a big difference in costs between both systems on the outer sections with greater distances between stations, such as the outer-Met. That would have been a lot of 'wiggly wire' to lay, especially on the four track sections. At the outset with this CTBC, it was claimed that in comparison with the wiggly wire TBTC; - The railway doesn't come to a halt for a single defective tag or single defective radio mast like it does if the red wire is broken. - There are cost savings at track renewals because removing and refitting tags is cheaper and easier than the red wire. - When things go wrong, a train can be 're-entered' into ATC in the distance to read two tags, compared to a longer distance stuck in RM below 10mi/h to cross two loop boundaries. Thus system recovery can be quicker.
I think at least some of this remains true!
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Post by jimbo on Jan 18, 2023 23:51:53 GMT
How are the antennae sited? Is there one for each track, or one to cover all four tracks in each area?
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Post by pbin on Jan 19, 2023 11:49:02 GMT
Work has also just begun installing new track mounted transponder tags, axle counters and antenna masts between Fulham Broadway and Putney Bridge, Ravenscourt Park and Stamford Brook. When would these areas go live? Probably a long time away but would it be before SMA8?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jan 19, 2023 13:37:37 GMT
Hopefully I won't get shot for sharing this......
So SMA7 (Becontree to Upminster) has a planned go live date of 18th/19th March though there is a planned back up date of 24th/25th June.
SMA8 (Finchley Road to Preston Road) has a planned go live date of 24th/25th February 2024
As ever with these things, none of those planned go live weekends may actually happen.
There are no further go live dates planned at the moment but testing is planned as follows (again with the caveat that none of this is guaranteed to happen):
SMA8 (Finchley Road to Preston Road) - 19th/20th August, 11th/12th November, 13th/14th January 24 SMA9 (Preston Road to West Harrow/Moor Park) - 9th/10th September, 30th Sept/1st Oct, 25th/26th November SMA10 (Barons Court to Stamford Brook) - 9th/10th December, 16th/17th March 24 SMA12 (Fulham Broadway to East Putney) - 9th/10th December, 16th/17th March 24 SMA13 (Moor Park to Amersham/Chesham/Watford) - 23rd/24th March 24
That's all there is planned at the moment - hopefully that gives an idea of how things are likely to progress.
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Jan 19, 2023 14:08:28 GMT
DStock 7080 posted that SMA8 was due in 2024.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Jan 19, 2023 14:13:53 GMT
DStock 7080 posted that SMA8 was due in 2024. Yep - fat fingers - now corrected.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jan 20, 2023 8:32:45 GMT
There are no further go live dates planned at the moment but testing is planned as follows (again with the caveat that none of this is guaranteed to happen): SMA8 (Finchley Road to Preston Road) - 19th/20th August, 11th/12th November, 13th/14th January 24 Also 7-10 April this year.
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Post by PiccNT on Jan 20, 2023 9:09:30 GMT
It may have already been mentioned that 17's points between Barons Court and Hammersmith are being removed next month (or so) so it will no longer be possible for trains from the westbound fast (Piccadilly) to carry out a move to the westbound local (District).
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Post by jimbo on Jan 21, 2023 4:22:14 GMT
Hopefully I won't get shot for sharing this...... SMA12 (Fulham Broadway to East Putney) - 9th/10th December, 16th/17th March 24 ..... Is SMA12 linked to commissioning of new sidings to the north of Parsons Green to compensate for sale of Lillie Bridge sidings site? Or are the two projects being progressed separately? Works to vacate the old depot should commence in 2024.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jan 21, 2023 5:11:46 GMT
Is SMA12 linked to commissioning of new sidings to the north of Parsons Green to compensate for sale of Lillie Bridge sidings site? Or are the two projects being progressed separately? Works to vacate the old depot should commence in 2024. I understand they are separate projects, usual LU “one hand, other hand” approach.
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Post by xtmw on Jan 23, 2023 17:37:49 GMT
District Line, Circle and H&C suspended, Met part suspended Wembley Park - Aldgate due to a signalling system failure. Is this CBTC related?
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