vincenture
Quiz tryhard, and an advocate for simpler, less complicated rail routes
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Post by vincenture on Aug 30, 2021 10:38:35 GMT
I find it odd that the planned closure from 8 to 9 January 2022 is only between Stepney Green and Barking, but not on the District line (which should be Stepney Green to Becontree). Also odd enough that it's also a SMA5 closure. Are they planning to test how SMA 5 integrates with SMA 6 on the H&C only (thereby excluding District line from the closure, which doesn't make any sense since District line would disrupt the orderly flow of trains)?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 30, 2021 11:32:43 GMT
I find it odd that the planned closure from 8 to 9 January 2022 is only between Stepney Green and Barking, but not on the District line (which should be Stepney Green to Becontree). Also odd enough that it's also a SMA5 closure. Are they planning to test how SMA 5 integrates with SMA 6 on the H&C only (thereby excluding District line from the closure, which doesn't make any sense since District line would disrupt the orderly flow of trains)? 8/9 January is the standby date for SMA 5 commissioning if it’s put back from November. It is not the SMA 6 commissioning date. Too early to say what will be planned/happening in January at this early stage |
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Post by goldenarrow on Aug 31, 2021 10:32:54 GMT
Installation of CBTC related equipment has got underway this past fortnight in SMA 14 (West Harrow - Uxbridge) with axle counters around Rayners Lane and foundation works for transmission masts around Eastcote and Ruislip Manor.
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Post by orienteer on Sept 3, 2021 16:52:48 GMT
I thought SMA 14 had been abandoned; has it been restored?
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Post by jimbo on Sept 3, 2021 18:28:58 GMT
I thought SMA 14 had been abandoned; has it been restored? That was considered, but never abandoned due to necessary life extension works needed on existing signalling on the branch. Only the western branches of the District line SMA 10, 11, 12 were abandoned, but part of those are now to be restored to ease the transition to conventional signalling, principally including Parsons Green. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2021 20:13:28 GMT
All of the Met line will be resignalled using CBTC including the Uxbridge branch. CBTC will control legacy signals for the Picc Line to enable those to be compatible.
On the District it will go as far as Stamford Brook and East Putney.
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Post by linus on Sept 4, 2021 9:14:29 GMT
Why not Turnham Green?
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Post by philthetube on Sept 4, 2021 11:54:00 GMT
Much safer to Turnham Red.  |
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Sept 4, 2021 14:21:32 GMT
Turnham Green all four tracks are controlled by the Piccadilly Line Control Room at South Kensington.
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Post by goldenarrow on Sept 4, 2021 14:28:34 GMT
Turnham Green is a control area under legacy signalling which are generally not favoured as locations for a ATO - legacy signalling transition points. Where possible, plain-line sections of track in automatic legacy signalled areas are preferred boundary locations owing to their comparative simplicity which is why Stamford Brook gets the gig. This is the case with all bar one boundary (Barons Court) on 4LM. |
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Post by alpinejohn on Sept 4, 2021 15:21:17 GMT
Doubtless the bean counters are the culprits but how hard can it be to see that cutting back the CBTC roll out is a false economy.
Eventually the current signalling on all lines will need replacement so all you are doing is time shifting the expense with the big downside you need to spend twice as much maintaining two systems rather than one, but each time you restart the process you need to go through the whole quotation, recruitment and staff training processes, and in the interim you are removing operational flexibility on routes shared with other lines.
The current ever shifting goal posts for the SMA's must be incredibly wasteful.
Doubtless the dead hand of HM Treasury are truly to blame for this chaos, which is reminiscent of the stop start mess on mainline railway electrification plans. So rather than devising and implementing a comprehensive rolling programme with all the efficiencies gained by training a single dedicated team charged with completing a steady stream of projects to deliver mainline railway electrification, we have seen the whole thing deteriorate into stop start chaos - all due to those dratted bean counters - with any "savings" identified being quickly wasted as suppliers end up having to draw up new tenders for project after project.
Surely by now the new trains for the Piccadilly will have been specified and it would make no sense to buy new trains if they don't also come fitted with a TBTC system which is fully compatible with the TBTC being used on the SSR line.
So why oh why are they not busy extending the current SMA list to cover the entire Met and District line routes and also the whole Piccadilly line route with the eventual intention of ensuring that the same TBTC system is progressive rolled out across the entire Underground network so that it is ready to use as and when new rolling stock is commissioned.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 4, 2021 16:06:01 GMT
Surely by now the new trains for the Piccadilly will have been specified and it would make no sense to buy new trains if they don't also come fitted with a TBTC system which is fully compatible with the TBTC being used on the SSR line. So why oh why are they not busy extending the current SMA list to cover the entire Met and District line routes and also the whole Piccadilly line route with the eventual intention of ensuring that the same TBTC system is progressive rolled out across the entire Underground network so that it is ready to use as and when new rolling stock is commissioned. The first Piccadilly 2024 Stock is not due to arrive until 2024 and expected into service in 2025. By that time S Stock will have been fitted with their version CBTC for 8 years. Technology moves very fast, and by 2025 the SSR CTBC may well be seen as outdated. Which is why the Piccadilly system has not been funded yet. As when it is, a completely updated metro train signalling system may be available, from a number of different manufactures. Possibly why the Central Line didn't adopt the Victoria Line version of ATO? |
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vincenture
Quiz tryhard, and an advocate for simpler, less complicated rail routes
Posts: 885
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Post by vincenture on Sept 4, 2021 18:17:15 GMT
It is possible that they're still considering the Piccadilly line extension to Ealing Broadway which adds another factor of deferring the CBTC extension
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Post by piccboy on Sept 4, 2021 23:54:26 GMT
It is possible that they're still considering the Piccadilly line extension to Ealing Broadway which adds another factor of deferring the CBTC extension I don't believe the Piccadilly line extension scenario would be any significant factor, as S7's would still need to go to Ealing Broadway to stable in Ealing Common Depot. |
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Post by jimbo on Sept 5, 2021 2:49:44 GMT
The original plans for Wimbledon, Richmond & Ealing branches, now abandoned for economy reasons, was to retain current signalling there but bolt on CBTC to control S7 trains automatically. That left the Picc to find a new signalling system when the time eventually comes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2021 7:59:18 GMT
It is possible that they're still considering the Piccadilly line extension to Ealing Broadway which adds another factor of deferring the CBTC extension I don't believe the Piccadilly line extension scenario would be any significant factor, as S7's would still need to go to Ealing Broadway to stable in Ealing Common Depot. They can reverse off the WB platform at Ealing Common to go into the depot. But it takes longer of course |
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Sept 22, 2021 8:39:51 GMT
Back to what’s happening with the testing that was carried out over the Weekend of 18 & 19 September on Signal Migration Area 05 has anyone information how this went ?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Sept 22, 2021 11:22:27 GMT
No information on the recent testing weekend but I don’t think it’s been mentioned on here that the planned November date for SMA5 go live has been cancelled.
The back up planned date is January 2022 though it’s no yet been confirmed if that is still on the table….
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Tom
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Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on Sept 22, 2021 16:33:27 GMT
Back to what’s happening with the testing that was carried out over the Weekend of 18 & 19 September on Signal Migration Area 05 has anyone information how this went ? Haven't seen the reports yet but I understand that less was achieved than was hoped for. There were a number of testing staff off either with Covid or Self-Isolating following a potential exposure the week before. |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Oct 5, 2021 17:24:07 GMT
No information on the recent testing weekend but I don’t think it’s been mentioned on here that the planned November date for SMA5 go live has been cancelled. The back up planned date is January 2022 though it’s no yet been confirmed if that is still on the table…. January date will now become a test weekend as there is clearly still outstanding work to be done. SMA5 go live has therefore been pushed back further to at least April or May 2022...... |
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Post by ijmad on Oct 5, 2021 20:00:36 GMT
Yikes. Are you able to disclose the nature of the latest issues or is that all secrets?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2021 20:48:46 GMT
Mostly software issues
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Tom
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Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on Oct 5, 2021 20:53:45 GMT
Just that they are reliability concerns rather than safety.
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Post by jimbo on Oct 5, 2021 23:56:31 GMT
That will be a year since SMA4 to Sloane Square! Traffic Circular 2/2019 said "From start of traffic on Tuesday 15 January 2019, Shadow Mode Running (SMR) will be in place in the SMA0.5 to SMA5 areas (inclusive)". It's been going a long while! It looks like SMA5 is the most complicated area to convert. Will it be all plain sailing once that is out of the way?
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vincenture
Quiz tryhard, and an advocate for simpler, less complicated rail routes
Posts: 885
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Post by vincenture on Oct 6, 2021 2:15:04 GMT
The only other buffers I can think of include integration with National Rail or the Piccadilly line
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2021 8:28:43 GMT
The only other buffers I can think of include integration with National Rail or the Piccadilly line SMA5 has no connection to NR or the Piccadilly Line |
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vincenture
Quiz tryhard, and an advocate for simpler, less complicated rail routes
Posts: 885
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Post by vincenture on Oct 6, 2021 10:54:51 GMT
The only other buffers I can think of include integration with National Rail or the Piccadilly line SMA5 has no connection to NR or the Piccadilly Line I am merely mentioning the buffers for the "predicted plainsailing" parts after SMA5 |
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Oct 6, 2021 13:03:01 GMT
It looks like SMA5 is the most complicated area to convert. Will it be all plain sailing once that is out of the way? It’s got nothing to do with the physical area. As mentioned above, it’s software issues. Basically we’ve been running with workarounds to known issues, referred to as “operational restrictions”. The boffins are trying to get as many resolved as possible before continuing the roll out. |
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Tom
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Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on Oct 6, 2021 18:22:33 GMT
It looks like SMA5 is the most complicated area to convert. Will it be all plain sailing once that is out of the way? No. The most technically complicated is SMA8, due to the interfaces to the Jubilee Line and Neasden Depot, and then SMA9 where the team have to provide both CBTC and Underlaid fixed block signalling, which is a bit novel for Thales. SMA5 is big, but probably no more difficult than SMA3 was. |
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Post by jimbo on Oct 11, 2021 18:50:09 GMT
It looks like SMA5 is the most complicated area to convert. Will it be all plain sailing once that is out of the way? It’s got nothing to do with the physical area. As mentioned above, it’s software issues. Basically we’ve been running with workarounds to known issues, referred to as “operational restrictions”. The boffins are trying to get as many resolved as possible before continuing the roll out. If there are software issues with SMA5 that mean another six month delay, is it possible that the east end of the District could be converted in the meantime? Or do you mean that there are software issues with the current commissioned areas, and no further areas will be converted until the existing problems are dealt with? |
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