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Post by ijmad on Mar 18, 2019 16:09:35 GMT
Appreciate that this may be a little early but does anybody know what the planned or speculated timetable for the metropolitan line is once the line is fully automated? Knowledge of proposed Peak or off peak frequencies would be interesting to know London Reconnections did some detective work and added some fairly well educated guesses on the end state of the SSR after resignalling a few years ago: www.londonreconnections.com/2015/subsurface-railway-resignalling-saga-continues/They suggest the peak will be uplifted from 22.5tph to 28tph. This would presumably be Uxbridge 12tph, Watford 10tph, Amersham 4tph and Chesham 2tph. 12tph would terminate at Baker Street and 16tph would continue to Aldgate. Off peak, LR speculates the service would be 15.5tph in to Baker Street with 7.5tph continuing to Aldgate, and the Circle becoming a Spiral during these periods. That is not an official plan, however, just their thinking.
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Post by londonboi1985 on Mar 18, 2019 16:12:30 GMT
RM 18KPH max if I remember rightly We don’t operate in KPH on cbtc it will restrict itself to 10mph on the SID
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Post by countryman on Mar 18, 2019 16:39:48 GMT
Appreciate that this may be a little early but does anybody know what the planned or speculated timetable for the metropolitan line is once the line is fully automated? Knowledge of proposed Peak or off peak frequencies would be interesting to know London Reconnections did some detective work and added some fairly well educated guesses on the end state of the SSR after resignalling a few years ago: www.londonreconnections.com/2015/subsurface-railway-resignalling-saga-continues/They suggest the peak will be uplifted from 22.5tph to 28tph. This would presumably be Uxbridge 12tph, Watford 10tph, Amersham 4tph and Chesham 2tph. 12tph would terminate at Baker Street and 16tph would continue to Aldgate. Off peak, LR speculates the service would be 15.5tph in to Baker Street with 7.5tph continuing to Aldgate, and the Circle becoming a Spiral during these periods. That is not an official plan, however, just their thinking. What do you mean by the Circle becoming a spiral?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 16:57:05 GMT
RM 18KPH max if I remember rightly We don’t operate in KPH on cbtc it will restrict itself to 10mph on the SID More or less the same 18KPH being 11.1MPH
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Post by Chris L on Mar 18, 2019 17:30:49 GMT
London Reconnections did some detective work and added some fairly well educated guesses on the end state of the SSR after resignalling a few years ago: www.londonreconnections.com/2015/subsurface-railway-resignalling-saga-continues/They suggest the peak will be uplifted from 22.5tph to 28tph. This would presumably be Uxbridge 12tph, Watford 10tph, Amersham 4tph and Chesham 2tph. 12tph would terminate at Baker Street and 16tph would continue to Aldgate. Off peak, LR speculates the service would be 15.5tph in to Baker Street with 7.5tph continuing to Aldgate, and the Circle becoming a Spiral during these periods. That is not an official plan, however, just their thinking. What do you mean by the Circle becoming a spiral? The Circle line would be extended from Edgware Road to Aldgate in the off peak in place of some of the Met trains (which would terminate at Baker Street).
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Post by br7mt on Mar 18, 2019 18:47:57 GMT
spsmiler is describing what I found on my journey from Latimer Rd to Hammersmith. All stops were solely using brake blocks that cannot have been the train's on board wheel slide protection since the default is to slow using dynamic braking even if this cuts out shortly after being applied. Controllers must have placed an intervention code over the stretch of line during the wet weather to override the use of any form of dynamic braking completely. What you've seen is FOBA (Friction Only Brake Application). It's intended for use at specific platforms at specific times and is in the setup configuration. It's not set by the operators. I'm sure someone with a better rolling stock knowledge than I will be along shortly to explain it in more detail. It was found on the Jubilee and Northern lines that the brake blocks need to be conditioned every so often to maintain performance of the friction brake when called upon. People may recall all the movements of 95TS and 96TS to the South Ealing Test Track, which was mainly for this reason. So the lessons learnt are clearly being applied by adding this from day 1 on SSR version of SelTrac. Regards, Dan
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 18, 2019 22:17:11 GMT
Is the old colour signalling being fully turned off between Hammersmith and Latimer Road as part of the commissioning of SMA 0.5? Or are they being kept as a backup or overlay system? It has been commissioned, the lineside signals are extinguished and hooded over. The above embedded tweet shows the (now covered) signals in the former Queendom of OZ.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2019 22:41:36 GMT
Buy some shares in bin liner company you cant lose for a few years
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Post by ijmad on Mar 18, 2019 22:54:40 GMT
I popped down to Hammersmith earlier and went for a ride. Noticed a couple of things:
The train I was on stopped short at Goldhawk Road northbound, then moved slightly forward to the correct position. The train also made a very tentative approach to Wood Lane. I assume there's some tweaking of approach speeds still to do here and there. The extra time between the train stopping and the doors opening isn't much, but it is noticeable, and seemed to throw some people off their usual rhythm.
A train birthed in the Southbound platform at Wood Lane had all its doors open but with the 'DOOR NOT IN USE' sign illuminated over each of the open doorways. Not sure what was going on there. It didn't seem to prevent the train closing its doors and moving shortly after the white lights illuminated. Small gremlin in the system I wondered?
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Post by londonboi1985 on Mar 19, 2019 2:36:37 GMT
I popped down to Hammersmith earlier and went for a ride. Noticed a couple of things: The train I was on stopped short at Goldhawk Road northbound, then moved slightly forward to the correct position. The train also made a very tentative approach to Wood Lane. I assume there's some tweaking of approach speeds still to do here and there. The extra time between the train stopping and the doors opening isn't much, but it is noticeable, and seemed to throw some people off their usual rhythm. A train birthed in the Southbound platform at Wood Lane had all its doors open but with the 'DOOR NOT IN USE' sign illuminated over each of the open doorways. Not sure what was going on there. It didn't seem to prevent the train closing its doors and moving shortly after the white lights illuminated. Small gremlin in the system I wondered? Not all carriages have the red lighted above the doors that say “door not in use it is only the end driving cars that have them. They normally flicker on and off at random times when there is a “glitch” with the csde beacon on the platforms. I have had it a few times in my cab where I have stopped on the mark and in my cab the “petrol pump icon” (it’s nickname) will flash on and off as the train picks the signal up. This in turn will flash the door not in use signs on and off in the carriage. Just the joys of technology lol
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Post by ijmad on Mar 19, 2019 8:48:55 GMT
Yeah you're right, I only clearly saw the front carriage. My mistake thinking that they were all the way down the train. Anyway, doesn't seem like too big a deal, I'm sure they'll sort that one out in time.
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Post by londonboi1985 on Mar 19, 2019 11:10:39 GMT
Yeah you're right, I only clearly saw the front carriage. My mistake thinking that they were all the way down the train. Anyway, doesn't seem like too big a deal, I'm sure they'll sort that one out in time. I doubt they will tbh it has been like that from the start. However the s stock does not use CSDE system for the doors in ATO running the doors are controlled by the Signalling system so that may fix that problem
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Post by t697 on Mar 19, 2019 20:44:26 GMT
Yeah you're right, I only clearly saw the front carriage. My mistake thinking that they were all the way down the train. Anyway, doesn't seem like too big a deal, I'm sure they'll sort that one out in time. I doubt they will tbh it has been like that from the start. However the s stock does not use CSDE system for the doors in ATO running the doors are controlled by the Signalling system so that may fix that problem Just to avoid concern; The CSDE function is provided by the ATC in the ATC commissioned areas. The Door Not in Use indicators come on relatively briefly if the ATC controller (VOBC) that is the Active one is changing to the other one, or at the entry station, when the VOBC becomes Active as the mode is switched from tripcock to an ATC mode. Currently there is normally a change from the front VOBC to the rear one at Wood Lane WB. More generically it's at the first station after the boundary. No plan to change this. Count it as a feature!
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Mar 19, 2019 22:00:49 GMT
Glad to see its going so well!! What a revolution it will be to have a signalling system that: *Is more reliable *Enables higher throughput on the north and south side of the Circle *Is more resilient
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 20, 2019 0:25:54 GMT
Currently there is normally a change from the front VOBC to the rear one at Wood Lane WB. More generically it's at the first station after the boundary. No plan to change this. Count it as a feature! What is the intention behind this switch?
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Post by t697 on Mar 20, 2019 5:42:23 GMT
Currently there is normally a change from the front VOBC to the rear one at Wood Lane WB. More generically it's at the first station after the boundary. No plan to change this. Count it as a feature! What is the intention behind this switch? Typically wheelsets towards the rear of a train experience slightly better wheel/rail adhesion, due to the passage of wheelsets in front. Therefore the tachometer axles associated with the rear VOBC are slightly less likely to experience slip, thus improving reliability of operation. Apparently it was too much of a tear up of existing proven software to do this as default on start up or entry to the ATC area so it's done at the next station. Once in the ATC area it does swap ends again at the reversing terminus. So the quirk will go away when there are no migration boundaries left.
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class411
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Post by class411 on Mar 20, 2019 8:34:02 GMT
I doubt they will tbh it has been like that from the start. However the s stock does not use CSDE system for the doors in ATO running the doors are controlled by the Signalling system so that may fix that problem Just to avoid concern; The CSDE function is provided by the ATC in the ATC commissioned areas. The Door Not in Use indicators come on relatively briefly if the ATC controller (VOBC) that is the Active one is changing to the other one, or at the entry station, when the VOBC becomes Active as the mode is switched from tripcock to an ATC mode. Currently there is normally a change from the front VOBC to the rear one at Wood Lane WB. More generically it's at the first station after the boundary. No plan to change this. Count it as a feature! VOBC, anyone?
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 20, 2019 8:55:26 GMT
Vehicle On Board Controller. It's the bit of kit that drives the train. There's two per train, one in each driving cab. Just to avoid concern; The CSDE function is provided by the ATC in the ATC commissioned areas. What about when in RM (Restricted Mode) - say for example the VOBC's stop communicating and we're forced to drive in RM mode, do we then rely on the current tags to provide the CSDE (correct side door enable) function?
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Post by piccboy on Mar 20, 2019 12:14:26 GMT
Just to avoid concern; The CSDE function is provided by the ATC in the ATC commissioned areas. The Door Not in Use indicators come on relatively briefly if the ATC controller (VOBC) that is the Active one is changing to the other one, or at the entry station, when the VOBC becomes Active as the mode is switched from tripcock to an ATC mode. Currently there is normally a change from the front VOBC to the rear one at Wood Lane WB. More generically it's at the first station after the boundary. No plan to change this. Count it as a feature! VOBC, anyone? VOBC = Vehicle On-Board Computer.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2019 12:52:59 GMT
VOBC = Vehicle On-Board Computer. C Controller
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Post by piccboy on Mar 20, 2019 15:54:05 GMT
VOBC = Vehicle On-Board Computer. C Controller Haven't had my ATO training yet. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it!
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londoner
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Post by londoner on Mar 20, 2019 16:00:37 GMT
Haven't had my ATO training yet. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it!
There seems to exist a lot of acronyms on the railways. I'd be surprised if anyone knew all of them.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Mar 20, 2019 16:54:03 GMT
That’s why such a post exists to explain it all Click here for said postIt's a little frustrating that three hours after I'd posted the correct interpretation of the abreviation somebody else comes along and guesses it incorrectly thus forcing someone else to post a correction. Next thing you know, we're off on a tangent about abbreviations and drifting away from the thread subject matter. I always do my best to remember the non railway viewers of this forum and put the meanings in brackets whenever I use abbreviations. As a forum consultant, I would highly encourage others to do the same thus avoiding the need for additional posts to explain one abbreviation.
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Post by t697 on Mar 20, 2019 19:14:43 GMT
Vehicle On Board Controller. It's the bit of kit that drives the train. There's two per train, one in each driving cab. Just to avoid concern; The CSDE function is provided by the ATC in the ATC commissioned areas. What about when in RM (Restricted Mode) - say for example the VOBC's stop communicating and we're forced to drive in RM mode, do we then rely on the current tags to provide the CSDE (correct side door enable) function? Sorry to all for my VOBC gaffe. I'd thought it had been given in full not too far further back in the thread. On the CSDE in RM question; Yes the current beacon tags will give CSDE if the train is in RM. Longer term they are due to be removed though. I think the training/briefing material may mention that but emphasise the Emergency Open process.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2019 20:00:44 GMT
The version of CSDE for which the S stock use will remain until further notice but in a Auto mode the train doesn’t use this. It uses the information held on the VOBC which has already been programmed with other details like what tag to expect first and next and so on etc for all routes the S stock run, regardless of an S7 or S8
I believe in the future when the tags for CSDE are removed well if removed in RM which is a degraded manual mode the driver will have to put in the relevant procedures to override the system like currently happens now if it fails.
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Post by philthetube on Mar 25, 2019 20:45:53 GMT
Guessing the signalling must be running really well for this thread to go 5 days without a post.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 7:14:53 GMT
A few issues with routing into Hammersmith sidings which Thales are looking at but no major problems all good so far
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Post by alpinejohn on Apr 22, 2019 14:02:46 GMT
So a few questions..
SMA 0.5 was commissioned just over a month ago, and since then there has been a comforting lack of "end of the world" type stories in the Evening Standard - so presumably the system is bedding in OK.
Roll out plans outlined earlier in this thread, suggested there would be a two month gap between SMA 0.5 and SMA 1 (extending the system to Paddington H&C). So is mid-late May still likely to see the next major stage?
As for SMA2 I recall someone pointing out that it cannot proceed unless/until all the S7s have been dragged back to Derby to have the on train equipment installed and tested. So are there many S7s still to be updated?
Likewise SMA3 (extending beyond Baker Street junction) cannot proceed until the S8s are also sorted out? Are they all done now?
Given the ongoing issues sorting out GOBLIN software, the last thing TFL needs just now, is another project grinding to an unscheduled halt due to software installation and testing issues.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Apr 22, 2019 14:10:35 GMT
I wouldn't be surprised if the next few commissioning dates move a little, I'm not expecting SMA1 in May.
SMA2 requires the entire S8 fleet to be modified, whereas the whole S7 fleet is not required until SMA3.
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Post by goldenarrow on Apr 22, 2019 16:35:45 GMT
alpinejohn , In answer to your question over ATC (Automatic Train Control) mods, as of the beginning of this month there are just 5 S8’s (out of 58) and 21 S7’s (out of 134) to be converted. With those numbers combined with a good few months before the Metropolitan requires ATO enabled stock, it should easily be able meet the full service requirement of 49. The Circle, H&C and Wimbleware have long past the point of having enough enabled stock for SMAs 1 & 2.
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