Southern Trains - The Way Forward?

In terms of what is an essential service, my personal view is that if the service were run by a private sector organisation and that organisation ceased trading/ceased operating the service, for whatever reason, would government (at any level) have to step in to ensure a continuation of the service (either by providing it directly, or by contracting a different organisation to take over)?
If the answer is yes, then it is an essential service. Examples include the police and fire brigade.
If the answer is no, then it is not. Examples include coffee shops and newspapers - the private sector would soon fill any actual gap in provision without the government needing to be involved.
There are also semi-essential services that need to be provided, but short term gaps in provision are not disastrous. An example is refuse collection.
One organisation may provide both essential and non-essntial services, and I put TfL in this category - only in truly exceptional circumstances* can London function without at least one of the tube and buses and there is massive disruption when only one is working, however cycle hire is not essential. *e.g. after 7/7, but to what extent London was a functioning city that day is debatable (but not in this thread).


What matters is not so much the absolute failure rate, but the relative failure rate and the relative severity of the consequences of failure. I don't know where to start looking to find that.


On LU only ATO lines had/have them, and they function(ed) by setting the target speed of the (current? next? both?) block to be 0, commanding an emergency brake application. Accidental operation is avoided by placing the buttons behind flaps, and deliberate misoperation is countered by a large fine for improper use. I don't know how many improper uses there are (I would expect any delays to be publicly attributed only as "customer action") but I'm not aware of it being a big issue. However it is worth noting that these buttons are not present on the Jubilee (installed but never commissioned and now removed) or Northern lines (never installed afaik) but I don't know the reason for this.

In principle this system would also work with manually driven trains with in-cab signalling. I can also imagine that it would be possible for an emergency button to transmit an emergency stop message over the secure radio system used on NR (the name of which escapes me) to all trains in a defined area (defining the area would be trivial for a fixed button, restricting the message to that area maybe less so). These buttons could be fitted at stations and level crossings. However, determining whether activation was proper or improper at an unstaffed location may take some considerable time and there would need to be a very robust and carefully considered procedure for anything other than assuming activation is proper until determined otherwise in person.

All very true - but the inhabitants of the DfT would argue that if its all about helping people on and off trains, giving out information, providing security to travellers etc, then you don't need a highly paid Guard* to do that. I'm sure there are plenty of the Governments 'outsourcing specialists' that would only be to happy to employ people on the minimum wage with pretty atrocious T&Cs to forfill that role at a very low cost to the TOC.

Hence the RMTs justified concerns that while the role of OBS created by Southern may well preserve wages and T&Cs for now, the removal of traditional 'Guard' duties makes it so much easier for the 'power of the free market' so beloved by Conservatives to do its worst in future years.

* A 'Guard' has specific railway safety of the line responsibilities, detailed route knowledge, etc which is why they can command the wages and T&Cs that they do.

Southern have solved this by having the OBS keying into a door control panel at every stop (just like a guard) and checking for any people in need of help. Driver wouldn't be able to get interlock preventing them from departing without OBS.

This has already been addressed by Southern.

At stations the OBS is required to insert their conductors key into the nearest guards control panel and turn the doors off in the open position until they are sure nobody requires assistance on the platform or until they have finished assisting a passenger off the train. This prevents the driver from closing that set of doors and consequently the train cannot leave the OBS on the platform.

Given this is virtually identical to what Guards used to do some may wonder why did Southern start the dispute in the first place? The answer is - as I have long been pointing out to folk - that Southern / GTR / the DFT don't want to cancel a train if the OBS that has been rostered is not available, be that through sickness, a domestic emergency, being held up en route to the train, the roster clerk has been unable to find cover or if the RMT is on strike.

The other aspect is that Guards have to undertake extensive trackside training which costs. If you strip out all the unseen (yet costly for a TOC) training and simply focus on 'front of house' stuff so to speak, staff wages can be reduced (particularly if strike action has minimal effect on the train service.

So to recap, there is minimal difference between what the Guard used to do and what the OBS now does from the passengers point of view - the only real difference is that occasionally (what Southern are calling exceptional circumstances) their train may not have an OBS on board and run as DOO. For the DfT and others however the differences are vast - hence the determination by each side not to give ground.

£2.1bn that could be invested in line infrastructure (see point about Balcombe Tunnel above)

I asked this in the Southern thread and it looks like everyone skipped over it so I am asking it here. I have not used Southern at the weekends. GTR'S website makes it hard to tell but do the strikes affect weekend services or are they generally normal? Especially on Sundays?

No strikes affecting weekend services, but the driver's overtime ban will be affecting them. Services will be running, but compared to a normal timetable, there'll be a few cancellations.

TU ballots usually far more transparent and with greater numbers taking part than any government election, but not really in the interest of the media to report this 😉

I read once that it was quite possible on the Underground to have an ASLEF guard and an NUR driver. Unthinkable on British Rail.

Yes, more common than you'd think. A lot of drivers felt a little let down by the exclusive train drivers Union post company plan and negotiation of drivers wages post OPO intro

Do they have replacement buses for them to drive though?

they do have troop buses which can be converted to ambulances

the members have to vote first