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Post by snoggle on Oct 4, 2016 10:40:40 GMT
Mods - I've put this in the "general" thread as it covers road, river, DLR and Overground services. If you want to chop it up for DLR and Overground then fair enough but I've tried to avoid too much repetition. The Mayor has announced a revised approach to River Crossings to the east of Tower Bridge. www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/mayor-commits-to-east-london-crossingsSeems to consist of a - "greener" Silvertown tunnel with all the bus services being "green". - a "cycle bus" through the Silvertown tunnel - a new bridge for pedestrians and cyclists from Rotherhithe to Canary Wharf - a DLR extension to Thamesmead from Gallions Reach. - more "assessment" of extending the GOBLIN under the Thames - a possible extra river bus service. There will be a new consultation next week. Can't see any of the clean air campaigners nor locals in Greenwich being remotely impressed with any of this. DLR ExtensionGOBLIN possible extension and new ferry
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Post by domh245 on Oct 4, 2016 11:46:10 GMT
Can't see any of the clean air campaigners nor locals in Greenwich being remotely impressed with any of this. I can understand that the Greenwich locals would be unimpressed by the construction, but why would clean air campaigners be unimpressed?
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Post by brigham on Oct 4, 2016 11:58:17 GMT
Is the river flow strong enough for the new ferry to be self-acting?
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Post by trt on Oct 4, 2016 12:13:19 GMT
I went round Thamesmeade for the first time the other week on the bus. Interesting place. Lots of low density housing and open space, seems a bit derelict in places. Lots of potential.
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Post by Chris M on Oct 4, 2016 12:32:38 GMT
Is the river flow strong enough for the new ferry to be self-acting? I very much doubt it, given the tides are much stronger than the river flow other than around slack water (the short period around high and low water when the tide is turning). I also don't know if a self-acting ferry would have the necessary manoeuvrability to avoid other river craft. Officially, no class of boat has priority over any other on the Thames, but in practice cross-river traffic almost always gives way to users heading up or down river, and everything gives way to human-powered craft and most things give way to canal boats (as they are much lower powered than river craft).
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 4, 2016 13:14:19 GMT
why would clean air campaigners be unimpressed? Perhaps because there would just as much traffic through Blackwall, and queuing on its approaches, as there is now? Fifty years ago they provided cycle buses through the Dartford Tunnel. Massively over specified for the amount of traffic on offer, they didn't last long. If you want to take a bike across today, the staff chuck it in the back of one of their patrol vehicles and take you through in that.
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Post by crusty54 on Oct 4, 2016 17:08:19 GMT
why would clean air campaigners be unimpressed? Perhaps because there would just as much traffic through Blackwall, and queuing on its approaches, as there is now? Fifty years ago they provided cycle buses through the Dartford Tunnel. Massively over specified for the amount of traffic on offer, they didn't last long. If you want to take a bike across today, the staff chuck it in the back of one of their patrol vehicles and take you through in that. The queues for the Blackwall Tunnel are now 7 days a week for much of the day. There will be tolls on all the tunnels which should help traffic. The north side links with the A13 near Canning Town. This should spread things out.
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Post by Chris M on Oct 4, 2016 17:56:34 GMT
The north side distributes the traffic between routes reasonably well, but on the south side it doesn't at all as there is no capacity expansion on the A102. The new tunnel will draw traffic from other routes and release suppressed journeys so it isn't going to be a case of just diving the existing traffic between two tunnels. New bus links between Canning Town/Canary Wharf and Greenwich will be well used I suspect, but these could be introduced without a new road tunnel with all the problems and costs that entails by thinking outside the box - amphibious buses exist for example and development of that technology for London would be less costly than the tunnel and would likely have at least comparable if not greater export-from-London possibilities as the new routemaster.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 4, 2016 18:13:46 GMT
Can't see any of the clean air campaigners nor locals in Greenwich being remotely impressed with any of this. I can understand that the Greenwich locals would be unimpressed by the construction, but why would clean air campaigners be unimpressed? Adding additional road capacity on this scale will simply generate much more traffic and any relief of the Blackwall tunnel will the short lived. You can't argue that a link will be "green" and then also say it will massively help business and redevelopment. The latter two almost always mean far more vehicle movements because there are new places to go, new businesses that need logisitical support (lorries and vans) and employees (many will drive) plus customers (if retail or leisure busnesses) implying yet more cars. Even if the crossings are tolled (Blackwall too) there will still be a flood of traffic and then there will be more pressures to raise capacity on the main connecting roads north and south - again more capacity means more traffic and more pollution. IIRC TfL's own consultation material showed considerable traffic increases over a wide area north and south of the river as a result of new generated traffic demand. I note some campaigners said they feel "betrayed" by the Mayor but I'm not surprised by this decision at all. The strong emphasis from Mr Khan about business and redevelopment all said to me that he was very likely to proceed with building this tunnel. All Mayors like to have some bits of concrete and metal as their "legacy" and this is likely to be part of the current Mayor's legacy to London - if he can get it funded and through the planning process!! I feel these latter two aspects will prove very tricky as campaigners will bring multiple legal challenges about the environmental impact. There were problems a long while about funding and whether some form of PFI deal (linked to the tolls) could be put together. TfL certainly don't have the budget for it.
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Post by crusty54 on Oct 4, 2016 18:17:22 GMT
The north side distributes the traffic between routes reasonably well, but on the south side it doesn't at all as there is no capacity expansion on the A102. The new tunnel will draw traffic from other routes and release suppressed journeys so it isn't going to be a case of just diving the existing traffic between two tunnels. New bus links between Canning Town/Canary Wharf and Greenwich will be well used I suspect, but these could be introduced without a new road tunnel with all the problems and costs that entails by thinking outside the box - amphibious buses exist for example and development of that technology for London would be less costly than the tunnel and would likely have at least comparable if not greater export-from-London possibilities as the new routemaster. Double deckers don't fit in the original tunnel. The new tunnels will have a bus and truck lane which will allow the frequent bus services that are proposed.
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Post by Chris M on Oct 4, 2016 18:32:48 GMT
indeed you can't fit double decker buses in the current tunnel, hence why I said you'd need to think outside the box. Amphibious buses, ferries that coordinate with buses, etc. Just building a new tunnel wont help anybody if the buses just get stuck on the A102.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 4, 2016 22:45:54 GMT
amphibious buses exist for example . Intrigued. Tell us more.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Oct 4, 2016 23:02:43 GMT
amphibious buses exist for example . Intrigued. Tell us more. For a brief moment I had visions of D-Day!
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Post by Chris M on Oct 5, 2016 0:59:00 GMT
For starters there are the vehicles used by Duck Tours for sightseeing trips, but there are also more modern vehicles too. A quick google suggests the Dutch are the main exponents of the technology but there is nothing really too special about them - they are just buses that can operate on land or water. I haven't seen any images of a low-floor version but that's only with a handful of minutes searching, and even if they don't currently exist I'm sure they could with a bit of effort. intransit.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/11/amphibious-tour-bus-debuts-in-amsterdam/?scp=4&sq=bus&st=cse&_r=0 is a short article about an amphibious bus tour in Amsterdam from 2011 for example And here is a news article from 2009 about a British design that had lots of orders but failed to get off the ground due to lack of willingness to invest in a manufacturing startup. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8341616.stm Probably far less money required than was invested in the new routemaster and certainly far cheaper than a tunnel and all the associated costs.
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Post by crusty54 on Oct 5, 2016 3:23:18 GMT
For starters there are the vehicles used by Duck Tours for sightseeing trips, but there are also more modern vehicles too. A quick google suggests the Dutch are the main exponents of the technology but there is nothing really too special about them - they are just buses that can operate on land or water. I haven't seen any images of a low-floor version but that's only with a handful of minutes searching, and even if they don't currently exist I'm sure they could with a bit of effort. intransit.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/11/amphibious-tour-bus-debuts-in-amsterdam/?scp=4&sq=bus&st=cse&_r=0 is a short article about an amphibious bus tour in Amsterdam from 2011 for example And here is a news article from 2009 about a British design that had lots of orders but failed to get off the ground due to lack of willingness to invest in a manufacturing startup. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8341616.stm Probably far less money required than was invested in the new routemaster and certainly far cheaper than a tunnel and all the associated costs. Sorry but a few amphibious buses (small single deckers) and ferries would not help the volume of traffic needed. The latest proposals do include a ferry from North Greenwich to the Isle of Dogs. This already runs sometimes for events as Thames Clippers has a suitable pier at their base. The volume of river traffic is such that an under or over approach is necessary.
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Post by grahamhewett on Oct 5, 2016 8:52:11 GMT
@chris M - not to mention the sea "tractor" service to Burgh Island in S Devon... But perhaps you had in mind Volk's sea-going electric railway at Rottingdean?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 5, 2016 10:06:37 GMT
For starters there are the vehicles used by Duck Tours for sightseeing trips, but there are also more modern vehicles too. A quick google suggests the Dutch are the main exponents of the technology but there is nothing really too special about them - they are just buses that can operate on land or water. I haven't seen any images of a low-floor version but that's only with a handful of minutes searching, and even if they don't currently exist I'm sure they could with a bit of effort. intransit.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/11/amphibious-tour-bus-debuts-in-amsterdam/?scp=4&sq=bus&st=cse&_r=0 is a short article about an amphibious bus tour in Amsterdam from 2011 for example . I was intrigued by this, (and wanted to go to Amsterdam specially to go on the Floating Dutchman!) but it ceased operations in May 2015. www.simplyamsterdam.nl/Floating_Dutchman.htm Rotterdam's Splashtours are still taking bookings though. www.splashtours.nl/tickets/index.php?taal=en&menu=Tickets&submenu_nl=Boeken&thismonth=8&thisyear=2017It appears that a requirement to convert to electric (whether it was tourist boats or coaches which have to meet this new rules is not clear) proved technically unfeasible. As offroaders and fans of Scrapheap Challenge will know, Diesel engines can operate when totally submerged (provided they have a snorkel attached to the air intake!). But it suggests that a hybrid amphibious bus, let alone a straight-electric, might be very difficult to engineer. As for designing a low floor version, this would be very difficult to achieve. The reason for this is not hard to guess - Archimedes worked it out two thousand years ago, and "ye cannae beat the laws of Physics, Cap'n" Both DUKWs and the modern Dutch amphibious tourist buses get round the problem by being of very-high-floor configuration. The entrance doors of the Dutch vehicles are so high off the ground that they are boarded using gangway steps. Duck Tours solves the problem more prosaically by providing a built in ladder. (A railway-style platform would be anbother possibility, but hardly practical on a stage carriage service on London streets!) Any low floor version would have the passengers, and the entrance, below the waterline. This would not be a very pleasant experience for the passengers, and the doors would have to be extremely watertight - they would certainly have to be more robust than a standard bus door! And, unlike the tour buses, the doors on a stage carriage service must open and close far more often and far more quickly. In any case, most of the "below decks" space is needed for the power plant - for practical purposes there is a minimum power requirement for any vessel navigating the Tideway - it has to be powerful enough to beat the current, which can be as strong as 10 knots. The tides create another problem as well, as the slipways would have to be usable at all states of the tide (and, when the tide is falling, they would be difficult to negotiate as they would be very slippery). DUKWs have huge off-road tyres for this reason. Amsterdam's canals are not tidal so it wasn't a problem there. Like any multi-purpose tool, an amphibious vehicle is sub-optimal for each of its individual roles. It makes for an unwieldy road vehicle, and its seaworthiness is compromised. Better to provide quick and easy bus-ferry transfer stations. The easier way of getting a bus across a river is to piggy back on a ferry. This is done for example at both Torpoint and Sandbanks on the south coast, but as far as I am aware has never been proposed for the Woolwich ferry, despite numerous bus services serving both piers. (Incidentally, was it ever used to transfer trolleybuses between the main network at North Woolwich and the isolated Woolwich/Dartford network? I would imagine their battery power would have been up to the job). The Torpoint ferry buses appear to have higher platforms than normal, in order to negotiate the ramps. This is obviously a hindrance to low-floor access. www.showbus.com/gallery/sw/wntamar2.htm Where services are frequent, it makes more sense for the "sentient cargo" to transfer bus/ferry/bus on foot - quicker as well, as pedestrians can jump the queue of vehicles waiting for the ferry. Taking a bus on a ferry is a better option if there is nowhere to park buses at the ferry terminals, or where the service is so infrequent that it would not be economic to leave a bus standing idle at the far side for most of the time. It seems better suited to low frequency bus services where it would be inefficient to keep a second bus on the far side waiting for the ferry.
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Post by Chris M on Oct 5, 2016 12:07:47 GMT
a few small single deck buses wouldn't indeed solve the public transport needs on their own, but why restrict yourself to a few small single deckers? It seems so far that the main market for amphibious vehicles has been for sightseeing - for which these vehicles are ideal, but that does not mean that it is not possible to run a full fleet of double-deck vehicles on routes accross the river. They would also not be restricted to a single crossing, but could operate anywhere there was a ramp or slipway on both sides of the river (far easier and cheaper to construct than a tunnel). The level of river traffic is not such that cross-river buses or ferries downstream of Tower Bridge are impossible - far from it. There are fewer tourist boats and the river is much wider than in central London, where it would indeed be too busy.
As for lorries and private vehicles, the way to solve the problems at the Blackwall Tunnel is not to bring even more traffic to the area but to divert as much away from this point as possible. A bridge or tunnel at Gallions Reach or that sort of area connecting the North Circular, A12 and/or A13 to the south circular, A2 and/or A207 is far better from a strategic point of view. As possibly would abolishing the tolls at Dartford (I've seen conflicting opinions on this). However the real long-term solution is reduce the need for as many of these journeys as possible rather than encouraging more of them, which is what the Silvertown tunnel would do - it's probably the best option for building a new cross-river tunnel from the Greenwich Peninsula, but it is not the best option for a new river crossing between Tower Bridge and Dartford.
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Post by Chris M on Oct 5, 2016 12:19:13 GMT
AFAIK the Woolwich Ferry has never conveyed buses or trolleybuses in service. Presently, the ferry service is too infrequent and loading and unloading times too long for a cross-river bus route to be at all reliable. Neither problem is solvable using the current infrastructure, but if designed with bus carrying in mind from the start, they are not at all insurmountable I'd have thought.
As for the design of amphibious buses - yes they would need significant development work to be practical, but given some time, money and expertise I have little doubt that the problems could be overcome. I can't give you answers now as I don't have the time, money or expertise, but my point is that the problems caused by the Blackwall Tunnel need to be addressed with a wholistic approach and outside the box thinking, not just building a new road tunnel whose main impact will be to significantly worsen air quality and, at best, move traffic congestion slightly.
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Post by peterc on Oct 5, 2016 12:33:24 GMT
The problem with fixed crossings is the amount land that needs to be taken for the approaches. In the middle of a city this is expensive and politically difficult. As much as I like to be able to drive to south east London occasionally I think that additional road capacity is best restricted to a third "Dartford" crossing.
Internal London traffic is best coped with by additional foot/cycle crossings such as the proposed Rotherhithe bridge, more cross river rail which has a smaller land take than road and additional river services.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 5, 2016 12:34:53 GMT
Not saying it's impossible, but I am intrigued by what such an amphibious double decker would look like. Archimedes cannot be gainsaid. If the lower deck is anywhere near street level on land it would inevitably be below the waterline when afloat, and keeping any doors watertight would be a serious engineering challenge. It might be possible to design a bus that was boarded from the upper deck (some double deck trains are like this), but it would be an interesting exercise to design suitable bus stops for them!
Indeed both the DUKWs and the Dutch tour buses are effectively boarded at (and driven from) upper deck level - but they have no lower deck!)
Easier to fit the bus with a flotation device to make the crossing, (a "Fitted External Roll-on Roll-off Yoke for Bus Operation Across the Thames"). Even easier to let the sentient cargo transfer to and from such a floating device on foot.
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Post by phil on Oct 5, 2016 13:33:18 GMT
The north side distributes the traffic between routes reasonably well, but on the south side it doesn't at all as there is no capacity expansion on the A102. The new tunnel will draw traffic from other routes and release suppressed journeys so it isn't going to be a case of just diving the existing traffic between two tunnels. New bus links between Canning Town/Canary Wharf and Greenwich will be well used I suspect, but these could be introduced without a new road tunnel with all the problems and costs that entails by thinking outside the box - amphibious buses exist for example and development of that technology for London would be less costly than the tunnel and would likely have at least comparable if not greater export-from-London possibilities as the new routemaster. The A102 doesn't need expanding - IIRC its 3 lanes in each direction from the A2 up to the tunnel mouths where it goes down to 2. At present the A102 basically acts a a giant stacking area for the existing tunnel - the proposed Silvertown tunnel will merely shorten the queue slightly. For maximum effectiveness I would also remove the first northbound off slip as you come out of the present northbound tunnel and direct any traffic from the south heading towards Canary Wharf or the London bound A13 through the Silvertown tunnel. Traffic heading for the A13 west or north of there would continue to use the current bore. Southbound is not quite so bad because of the better tunnel alignment and wider cross section
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Post by phil on Oct 5, 2016 13:44:36 GMT
The problem with fixed crossings is the amount land that needs to be taken for the approaches. In the middle of a city this is expensive and politically difficult. As much as I like to be able to drive to south east London occasionally I think that additional road capacity is best restricted to a third "Dartford" crossing. Internal London traffic is best coped with by additional foot/cycle crossings such as the proposed Rotherhithe bridge, more cross river rail which has a smaller land take than road and additional river services. And how exactly are London's small businesses and service industries expected to cope? The plumber, the builder, the delivery driver are not going to find PT or cycle links useful are they. The whole point about additional river crossings is nothing to do with enabling car use - is to enable business to not have to rely on the congested / restricted crossing points of Tower Bridge or the Rotherhite / Blackwall Tunnel or go all the way out to the congested Dartford crossing. Previously suggested ideas of bridges at Becton - Plumpstead and Rainham - Thamesmead would meet this requirement, unlike cycle / rail options. By all means make them single carriageway with dedicated bus / DLR / Overground options to prevent swamping of roads on either side but don't be delusional in that they are not required if you want developments along the river to thrive. West London has lots of bridges - mostly small single carriageway affairs giving lots of connectivity to each side, why cannot East London have the same rather than being reliant of massive and congested detours
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Post by brigham on Oct 5, 2016 13:58:00 GMT
Thinking outside the box is dangerous for politicians. It provides ammunition for one's opponents. 'Kahn's DUKS' will not go down well with people in a traffic jam.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2016 14:19:31 GMT
AFAIK the Woolwich Ferry has never conveyed buses or trolleybuses in service. Presently, the ferry service is too infrequent and loading and unloading times too long for a cross-river bus route to be at all reliable. Neither problem is solvable using the current infrastructure, but if designed with bus carrying in mind from the start, they are not at all insurmountable I'd have thought. As for the design of amphibious buses - yes they would need significant development work to be practical, but given some time, money and expertise I have little doubt that the problems could be overcome. I can't give you answers now as I don't have the time, money or expertise, but my point is that the problems caused by the Blackwall Tunnel need to be addressed with a wholistic approach and outside the box thinking, not just building a new road tunnel whose main impact will be to significantly worsen air quality and, at best, move traffic congestion slightly. IIRC one of the sightseeing operators (Culture Bus? Ensign?) tried out a Docklands tour including a Woolwich ferry crossing in the late'80s or early '90s.
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Post by Chris M on Oct 5, 2016 14:21:27 GMT
Thinking outside the box is dangerous for politicians. It provides ammunition for one's opponents. 'Kahn's DUKS' will not go down well with people in a traffic jam. which is why there needs to be a package of measures to treat the whole issue of cross-river connections holistically rather than looking at small pieces in isolation and then doing (or not doing as has historically been the case) things to attempt to solve that little bit of the puzzle. Could amphibious buses solve all the problems on their own? no. But neither can a tunnel at Silvertown. The key point is that east London needs more river crossings, but the Silvertown tunnel doesn't really provide this, it's doing half of two jobs - adding capacity to the Blackwall tunnel and adding a new crossing - and not doing very well at either. Any crossing from Silvertown really needs to head more towards Charlton than North Greenwich in order to truly add a new crossing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2016 14:31:04 GMT
Not saying it's impossible, but I am intrigued by what such an amphibious double decker would look like. Archimedes cannot be gainsaid. If the lower deck is anywhere near street level on land it would inevitably be below the waterline when afloat, and keeping any doors watertight would be a serious engineering challenge. It might be possible to design a bus that was boarded from the upper deck (some double deck trains are like this), but it would be an interesting exercise to design suitable bus stops for them! Indeed both the DUKWs and the Dutch tour buses are effectively boarded at (and driven from) upper deck level - but they have no lower deck!) Easier to fit the bus with a flotation device to make the crossing, (a "Fitted External Roll-on Roll-off Yoke for Bus Operation Across the Thames"). Even easier to let the sentient cargo transfer to and from such a floating device on foot. I doubt if it would be possible to design a double-deck amphibious bus able to run through the streets of London and stable enough to operate in a tidal river.
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Post by trt on Oct 5, 2016 15:59:20 GMT
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Post by crusty54 on Oct 5, 2016 16:38:28 GMT
Hardly bigger than an SUV. The logic for the possible Overground extension should be a road crossing as well. Joined up thinking is needed. Local traffic could have lower tolls.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 5, 2016 17:31:37 GMT
And how exactly are London's small businesses and service industries expected to cope? The plumber, the builder, the delivery driver are not going to find PT or cycle links useful are they The clue is in the word "small". Such businesses exist on both sides of the river. If I lived in Erith and needed a plumber I'd call one based somewhere in Bexley, not one who is based in Dagenham, (just as I wouldn't call one based in Peckham, a similar distance by road). There is plenty of work north of the river for Dagenham's plumbers, and plenty of plumbers south of the river to clear Erith's drains. Why not build an expressway between Bexley and Peckham so that Peckham's plumbers can get a look-in too? Likewise, distribution networks need to take natural barriers into account. It would be different if there were a significant difference in facilities, population, or employment prospects between one side of the river and the other side, but that is not really the case here. (I can remember when we had an infestation of wasps when staying in Scotland. The nearest pest controller was only three miles away from us, but on the other side of the Kintyre peninsula, so nearly 30 miles by road!
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