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Post by superteacher on Sept 1, 2016 19:13:03 GMT
If District Dave's London Underground Forum ever does introduce a "Pedantry" board 411, I promise you, you'll be the first to know about it! Well, perhaps the first person who isn't a member of the forum staff... Chris, you pedant, you . . .
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rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
Posts: 10,223
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 1, 2016 21:22:03 GMT
If District Dave's London Underground Forum ever does introduce a "Pedantry" board 411, I promise you, you'll be the first to know about it! Well, perhaps the first person who isn't a member of the forum staff... Well, if it's a ProBoards change then the staff may well be the last to know.
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Post by Chris W on Sept 1, 2016 21:28:48 GMT
Well, if it's a ProBoards change then the staff may well be the last to know. It's common in many walks of life... and is called Mushroom Syndrome... It happens a lot at work... EDIT: Now I'm slapping my own wrists... we (including myself) need to remain on track re photography
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Post by silverfoxcc on Sept 3, 2016 23:50:04 GMT
Going slightly o/t re video on stations.When the A stock was in its last weeks. i went to HOTH and did some video. Staff were brilliant
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Post by marjoram on Sept 30, 2016 18:18:03 GMT
It's okay, even staff get challenged (and told we're incorrect) sometimes, even after ID is produced. Pleased to hear that you've contacted the company. I expect you'll be given something that you can print saying that photography is permitted without a permit for non-commercial purposes. If it happens again please do escalate the issue further. There are regular staff briefings (via the Traffic Circular) affirming the stance on non-commercial photography. Commercial photography (I.e. You are getting paid for it) and any form of video production is a different matter.
Thanks for your comments. I will let the forum know how LU respond, eventually. I am about to set off for a couple of weeks holiday and may not be able to post further throughout this time. Thanks once again to everybody who has taken the time to reply with their comments and thoughts. Richard M.
I have now received a reply from Tfl which, while it is very polite and clear, is neither the answer I was expecting nor was wanting to hear. The reply, from Customer Services reads: 'Thank you for your letter about taking photos of the newly refurbished units at Tube stations. As a general rule of thumb customers who wish to take photos have to seek permission first. We would advise them to either call us directly or email us with relevant stations, dates, times, duration and purpose of photography.
We would then confirm the activity in writing to the customer. I'm sorry that the member of staff was over-zealous in nature, but procedure wise he has simply followed the rules. However, I'm happy to know that Queen's Park staff were able to accommodate you.
Please provide us with the relevant information as requested and I'll happily provide written confirmation for you.
I look forward to your reply and I trust this clarifies the matter for you'.
Yours sincerely.
Needless to say I won't be applying for said permission as, to me, photography is more a spur of the moment thing and in my case is a combination of capturing the particular unit I want to photograph at the right location and on a nice sunny day! Such things certainly can't be booked in advance. As I said earlier it is a courteous reply but leaves me wondering where we all go from here.
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Post by Tubeboy on Sept 30, 2016 19:01:13 GMT
Speaking as an LU Station Supervisor AND enthusiast, it may be worthwhile having a quick word with the Supervisor whether or not it would be ok to take some pictures. Most staff won't have an issue with it, providing you're not doing anything against LU rules, tripods, flash, obstructing etc.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 30, 2016 21:27:46 GMT
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 30, 2016 21:29:20 GMT
The response is *exactly* what I expected. This is why I've never contacted them on this issue.
To my eyes the press or media (or whatever other name they call themselves) people are professionals in the field of media, public relations, preserving the good name and good honour of the corporate organisation for which they work. They are not transport professionals, they dont have the feel or love for transports, working for LU is just a job and public transports are just modes of transport. They could just as easily be working at a major bank, pharmaceutical company, food giant multinational, etc. To them it is important to have total control of how the organisation is portrayed and the idea of people running round taking their own photographs which are outside of their control is an anathema.
This is in addition to the expected safety imperatives, such as not allowing tripods, not allowing unapproved artificial lighting, etc.
I can understand things from their point of view, but as a transport enthusiast their corporatist ways of doing things are seen as unfriendly.
Returning to the Bakerloo Line, several years ago I actually encountered a bod who took exception to me even holding a camera (which looked like a smartphone) whilst inside a train on the section north of Queens Park. This lady made it quite clear that she worked at the press office and would call the police if I filmed her or anyone else. I had no intention of doing this and the way I was holding the camear did not suggest that I was going to film inside the train. Her manner of speaking was authoritative, it reminded me of a headmaster at a school telling off some errant pupils, giving them a good dressing down, etc.
Because I wanted an easy life and rather than pressing the point wanted to let her think she had won (and not go looking for trainspotters) and I did not argue or anything like that, instead I just left the train at the next station.
I am concerned that if people like her get their way it would be made illegal for people to use their own cameras on the Underground, unless specially authorised or at special 'public interest' events such as Steam On the Met.
What I would wish for is enlightened management who understand about transport enthusiasts to lay down the law and reign-in the press office. They are meant to handle media affairs - not stop trainspotters enjoying their hobby.
Many of the films made by transport enthusiasts are not just about transport, but also social history, including real life (rather than satinised) examples of how we travelled in years gone by, complete with not just static images but also moving video (sights and sounds) of the transports - nostalgia for those of us old enough to have experienced them in daily service but also educational for the generations of younger people who will never get to experience these types of rolling stock 'in the flesh'. Future historians will not be happy with the present generation of it took action to stifle the flow of future social history filmed by amateur enthusiasts.
One final point, within the next few weeks I shall be out hunting a refurbished 1972 Tube Stock train... just to update my film collection. This will be require me to travel on the section above ground, including Stonebridge Park which is a good place to film as the trains which enter service there are more likely to be empty.
Simon
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Post by spsmiler on Sept 30, 2016 21:47:35 GMT
My concern is that if these types of people discover that people are not actively forbidden from photographing the trains then they will do their level best to expand the by-laws to include all unauthorised filming. Simon
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Post by philthetube on Sept 30, 2016 22:00:42 GMT
It sounds to me as if the person replying thought you were a professional photographer.
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Post by MoreToJack on Sept 30, 2016 22:04:33 GMT
I haven't time to read fully all the replies right now, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating any points already made.
This came up at work recently. The official advice is still as I stated earlier in the thread, and I would strongly suggest responding to the email stating such, as well as including the relevant parts of TfL literature to back up your points.
If you are going to be on a station for any period of time then yes, I would definitely recommend signing in with the appropriate authority, but if you are 'passing through' then there are no issues at all, provided all appropriate instructions are followed.
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Post by MoreToJack on Sept 30, 2016 22:05:30 GMT
It sounds to me as if the person replying thought you were a professional photographer. Professional or otherwise has nothing to do with it; the key is *commercial* photography; it may be worth the OP clarifying in any response that these are not for commercial use.
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Post by MoreToJack on Sept 30, 2016 22:11:07 GMT
One final point, within the next few weeks I shall be out hunting a refurbished 1972 Tube Stock train... just to update my film collection. This will be require me to travel on the section above ground, including Stonebridge Park which is a good place to film as the trains which enter service there are more likely to be empty. Simon ...maybe this is why you have issues from time to time Simon? If you're hanging around at a station for a period of time - particularly with filming equipment - you *are* going to attract attention to yourself, particularly at a quieter station. But then again maybe you like the run-ins, because it gives you another reason to have a moan about staff. As a general rule of thumb, if you're going to be on a station for more than 10-15 minutes you should absolutely let staff know you're there. Most won't care, and some might even invite you in for a cup of tea. And, if there's an emergency, the staff know to look out for you too.
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Post by philthetube on Oct 1, 2016 1:56:16 GMT
It sounds to me as if the person replying thought you were a professional photographer. Professional or otherwise has nothing to do with it; the key is *commercial* photography; it may be worth the OP clarifying in any response that these are not for commercial use. that is what I meant, as in not acting professionally on the stations or trains. (In the sense of making money, not in the sense of doing a good job).
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Post by marjoram on Oct 3, 2016 15:51:58 GMT
I haven't time to read fully all the replies right now, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating any points already made. This came up at work recently. The official advice is still as I stated earlier in the thread, and I would strongly suggest responding to the email stating such, as well as including the relevant parts of TfL literature to back up your points. If you are going to be on a station for any period of time then yes, I would definitely recommend signing in with the appropriate authority, but if you are 'passing through' then there are no issues at all, provided all appropriate instructions are followed.
Thank you all for your views and comments. I will take your advice 'MoreToJack' and write back to Customer Relations quoting the relevant part of the Tfl rules and regulations and see what the response is this time.
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Post by superteacher on Oct 3, 2016 18:20:52 GMT
I haven't time to read fully all the replies right now, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating any points already made. This came up at work recently. The official advice is still as I stated earlier in the thread, and I would strongly suggest responding to the email stating such, as well as including the relevant parts of TfL literature to back up your points. If you are going to be on a station for any period of time then yes, I would definitely recommend signing in with the appropriate authority, but if you are 'passing through' then there are no issues at all, provided all appropriate instructions are followed.
Thank you all for your views and comments. I will take your advice 'MoreToJack' and write back to Customer Relations quoting the relevant part of the Tfl rules and regulations and see what the response is this time.
It will be interesting to see what they say. Don't forget to let us know!
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Post by Chris W on Oct 4, 2016 19:16:54 GMT
As a general rule of thumb, if you're going to be on a station for more than 10-15 minutes you should absolutely let staff know you're there. Most won't care, and some might even invite you in for a cup of tea. And, if there's an emergency, the staff know to look out for you too. In my experience this is absolutely spot on... Simply be open, friendly, approachable/non-confrontational... and most importantly... HONEST... then any resistance/objection almost always disappears ! On occasions staff who are equally interested ask questions of me... The jobsworth's simply make fools of themselves...
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Post by marjoram on Nov 23, 2016 17:59:58 GMT
Thank you all for your views and comments. I will take your advice 'MoreToJack' and write back to Customer Relations quoting the relevant part of the Tfl rules and regulations and see what the response is this time.
It will be interesting to see what they say. Don't forget to let us know!
Its me again - causing trouble! I have been out of the Country for a few weeks (hence the delay in replying) .
I wrote back to LU Customer Relations as follows: "Since receiving your letter of 26 September 2016 I have learned that written authority is NOT required when taking personal photographs providing the TFL conditions of carriage are obeyed. The conditions state that for safety reasons you must not take flash photographs or use a tripod or other camera support equipment. This guidance is detailed in paragraph 4.5 of the conditions" I then went on to point out that the security person at Stonebridge Park was clearly not following these guidelines and would they please make him aware of them.
The reply I received really beggars belief! "Thank you for your letter of 6 October about taking pictures at our stations. I can confirm that you must ask permission from the TfL Film Office ahead of time in order to film or take pictures at our stations. Please use the form attached to make your request. Alternatively you can contact our film address on the contact details below"
I won't give details of the contact address other than it is an address in SW1.
The letter closes with " Thanks for contacting us. If there is anything else we can help you with please reply to this e.mail"
Attached is a form for me to complete. Costs of ordinary photography are quoted as £500.00 per hour plus VAT and for filming (2 hours for the price of 1) for a maximum of five persons also £500.00 per hour (10.00 to 15.30 in LU zones 1 & 2 only).
No mention is made of the points made in my letter.
I GIVE UP!
Richard M.
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Post by superteacher on Nov 23, 2016 19:08:44 GMT
Sadly that's typical of TFL - giving a standard response which doesn't address any of the points in your complaint. In your case, it doesn't even corrrspons to your points.
Try writing to the Mayor as TFL are accountable to him.
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Post by John Tuthill on Nov 23, 2016 19:41:54 GMT
Sadly that's typical of TFL - giving a standard response which doesn't address any of the points in your complaint. In your case, it doesn't even corrrspons to your points. Try writing to the Mayor as TFL are accountable to him. And he'll pass it to TFL to sort out
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 23, 2016 20:05:40 GMT
Don't give up. Email back, asking for your query to be escalated to a more senior person who has actually read para 4.5 and can be bothered to read your complaint properly. (but be polite!) The bylaws are clearly set out, and the staff (whether on the platform at Stonebridge Park or in "customer services") do not have authority to make up extra ones. Tell them you are copying your complaint to your MLA and to London Travelwatch. And inform them that harassment of innocent travellers by staff exceeding their authority is not acceptable.
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Post by crusty54 on Nov 23, 2016 20:19:14 GMT
London Travelwatch is the correct route.
Stonebridge Park station is leased to TfL by Network Rail and to some extent their rules apply.
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Post by Chris W on Nov 23, 2016 20:24:38 GMT
I wrote back to LU Customer Relations as follows: "Since receiving your letter of 26 September 2016 I have learned that written authority is NOT required when taking personal photographs providing the TFL conditions of carriage are obeyed. The conditions state that for safety reasons you must not take flash photographs or use a tripod or other camera support equipment. This guidance is detailed in paragraph 4.5 of the conditions" I then went on to point out that the security person at Stonebridge Park was clearly not following these guidelines and would they please make him aware of them. The reply I received really beggars belief! "Thank you for your letter of 6 October about taking pictures at our stations. I can confirm that you must ask permission from the TfL Film Office ahead of time in order to film or take pictures at our stations. Please use the form attached to make your request. Alternatively you can contact our film address on the contact details below" Attached is a form for me to complete. Costs of ordinary photography are quoted as £500.00 per hour plus VAT and for filming (2 hours for the price of 1) for a maximum of five persons also £500.00 per hour (10.00 to 15.30 in LU zones 1 & 2 only). I GIVE UP! Richard M. Whoever wrote the letter back to you, IMO needs a map to understand where they might find they're ar$e and elbow... The form relates to commercial photography....!!! Personally, I would accept that you will meet some numpties and jobsworths who will behave unprofessionally... They might, as has happened to me, tell you that photography on LU is a criminal offence !!! They might... as has also happened to me.... intentionally physically block your way as you try to take a photo, whilst you comply with no flash/staying within passenger areas etc. etc. Regardless, just ask the Station Supervisor first. Be open and honest. If the SS says no, move on. If they say yes, sign in if they ask you to. Take the images you want following the rules to the letter (talk to station staff, most of whom are very very approachable)... don't outstay your welcome... sign out (remembering to say thank you - that's very important) and move on...
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Post by spsmiler on Nov 23, 2016 20:32:45 GMT
Hmm, thats an interesting response - ignore what the person said and repeat what you want them to hear.
My thoughts turn to the Beeching era railway closure public consultations (and the West London tramway consultations in more recent years) where the people in power had already decided upon the consultation result and did their level best to ignore what they were being told by the people their decisions affected.
I hope that they are not now contacting LUL or TfL to try and get what is said in para 4.5 rescinded.
Richard, please do *not* give up! Your efforts are both very worthwhile and much appreciated.
Simon
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 26, 2017 12:03:22 GMT
I see geofftech (who occasionally posts here) has had a run-in with Overground staff over filming for "All the Stations", despite the project being supported by the Rail Delivery Group.
Where was this? name and shame!
Missed you passing through my area on both Wednesday and Thursday! When are you coming back to cover the four you missed?
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
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Post by North End on May 26, 2017 13:18:24 GMT
I see geofftech (who occasionally posts here) has had a run-in with Overground staff over filming for "All the Stations", despite the project being supported by the Rail Delivery Group. Where was this? name and shame! Missed you passing through my area on both Wednesday and Thursday! When are you coming back to cover the four you missed? Sounds about right for London Overground. Some of the most weakly trained and useless station staff of any UK railway operator. One hopes LU never goes the same way.
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Post by crusty54 on May 26, 2017 14:10:16 GMT
Were they trying to film with a tripod? If so the staff were correct.
There are other rules which need to be followed.
All the facts need to be known before naming and shaming.
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Post by aslefshrugged on May 26, 2017 14:19:04 GMT
Also depends when they're filming, not best doing it during the morning or evening peak or other times when the station is busy. Taking photos is one thing, filming a vlog another.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 26, 2017 14:20:16 GMT
Having been following their progress over the past three weeks and 690 stations, it's all handheld. Most staff seem to have been enthusiastic about the project. And they seem to have avoided the rush hours. The only trains that were standing-room only were on the St Ives branch on Day 1 and the Manchester United shuttle on Day 15 (both Sundays!)
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Chris M
Global Moderator
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Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,383
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Post by Chris M on May 26, 2017 14:56:37 GMT
Most staff on the Overground that I've encountered have been friendly and happy for me to photograph. The ones at South Tottenham recently were not, insisting that taking photographs without permission was not allowed at any time for any reason. I complained to TfL but got the standard "you need a permit if you are doing commercial filming" that was not relevant on two counts (I wasn't filming and my photographs were not for commercial purposes, they were for the quiz).
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