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Post by marjoram on Aug 25, 2016 18:16:28 GMT
I had an excellent day-out on the Bakerloo yesterday doing a couple of round trips and taking a few photographs at intermediate stations. All was well at Harrow and Queens Road (where the staff were their usual friendly and helpful selves) but woe betide the visitor to Stonebridge Park. I had detrained there to photograph a specific unit returning south from Harrow. Out came my camera (its a compact and only the size of a cigarette packet) and I was preparing to shoot when Mr Officious appeared from nowhere and stood between me, the camera and the train. He then proceeded to cross examine me about the use of a camera. He said photographs could not be taken without his permission, so I said can I have your permission and he said no. I explained that my interpretation of the usual rules was, photos OK but no tripods and no flash. This didn't satisfy Mr O who said a written permit was required, I left knowing it was no use arguing further and returned to the safe haven of Queens Road. I have subsequently e.mailed LU and asked for a written permit to use at Stonebridge Park............................I wonder what their reply will be.
I have written this little tale, not out of nastiness, but as a warning to others who might alight at the lawless outpost of Stonebridge Park and dare to exhibit a camera! Richard M.
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Post by superteacher on Aug 25, 2016 18:23:34 GMT
Also worth contacting LU so that they can clarify the rules to the staff member at Stonebridge Park.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2016 19:03:30 GMT
One section of the present TfL ‘Conditions of Carriage’ document relates to passenger behaviour on London Underground trains and stations, on Docklands Light Railway trains and stations, and on London Overground trains and stations.
The document is freely available to the public.
Quite simply, for photography, the TfL ‘Conditions of Carriage’ in paragraph 4.5 states –
“For safety reasons ….. you must not: ….. take flash photographs and/or use a tripod or other camera support equipment”.
And that, quite simply, is how it stands right now! Nothing more, nothing less.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 25, 2016 20:42:21 GMT
Whilst, yes, you weren't doing anything "wrong" - your decision to leave when challenged was definitely the right one.
Shame you didn't get your picture, I'm sure there'll be more opportunities though.
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Post by patrickb on Aug 25, 2016 21:24:00 GMT
Sometime during the day on Friday 19th, on two separate occasions between the space of 20 minutes, two people took flash photographs at St James's Park as the train was pulling into the platform. I was surprised that the Train Op didn't say anything as the photograph was taken directly in front of the train. They both had DSLR's with a flash gun mounted on it. I presume that photographers were around following a certain media event at old TfL HQ...
It's a topic that can reach both extremes of the spectrum, you have the rules, you'll have people who get away with breaking them, and people who are stopped even if they follow them...
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 25, 2016 21:24:43 GMT
If someone wants to exercise their authority they need to first prove they have that authority. I hope you asked Mr OB for identification.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
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Post by North End on Aug 25, 2016 23:55:45 GMT
I had an excellent day-out on the Bakerloo yesterday doing a couple of round trips and taking a few photographs at intermediate stations. All was well at Harrow and Queens Road (where the staff were their usual friendly and helpful selves) but woe betide the visitor to Stonebridge Park. I had detrained there to photograph a specific unit returning south from Harrow. Out came my camera (its a compact and only the size of a cigarette packet) and I was preparing to shoot when Mr Officious appeared from nowhere and stood between me, the camera and the train. He then proceeded to cross examine me about the use of a camera. He said photographs could not be taken without his permission, so I said can I have your permission and he said no. I explained that my interpretation of the usual rules was, photos OK but no tripods and no flash. This didn't satisfy Mr O who said a written permit was required, I left knowing it was no use arguing further and returned to the safe haven of Queens Road. I have subsequently e.mailed LU and asked for a written permit to use at Stonebridge Park............................I wonder what their reply will be.
I have written this little tale, not out of nastiness, but as a warning to others who might alight at the lawless outpost of Stonebridge Park and dare to exhibit a camera! Richard M. Well your member of staff was incorrect, at Stonebridge Park is managed by LU, where there is no restriction apart from the normal rules about flash etc. Perhaps a polite contact to customer services would be in order, so the member of staff can be briefed accordingly. Obviously either a new member of staff or someone who doesn't read his Traffic Circular.
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Post by marjoram on Aug 26, 2016 12:06:33 GMT
If someone wants to exercise their authority they need to first prove they have that authority. I hope you asked Mr OB for identification.
Yes he showed me his name badge and I duly made a note of his name. I might take it further but will wait and see if my e.mail produces a response. Thanks.
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Post by marjoram on Aug 26, 2016 12:15:41 GMT
Whilst, yes, you weren't doing anything "wrong" - your decision to leave when challenged was definitely the right one. Shame you didn't get your picture, I'm sure there'll be more opportunities though.
Thank you for your comments and, as you say, there will probably be another opportunity. On a lighter note whilst I was at Queens Park, a driver from a train arriving from Elephant & Castle called me over and asked me how many units there were on the Bakerloo. He said he knew when first starting on LU but had subsequently forgotten - a short discussion then followed, between us, before he wished me well and was on his way. What a difference between two people working for the same employer.
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Post by trash80 on Aug 26, 2016 15:18:52 GMT
I was warned off Acton Town a few weeks ago (via the tannoy) because taking photos were "prohibited". I didn't bother arguing and just left. I guess they know people won't bother argueing.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Aug 26, 2016 16:29:54 GMT
Although I've no real interest in photographing trains I have to say I hate officialdom butting in when they don't know what they're talking about. It's out of order. Admittedly, the advice given above is the non-confrontational way of dealing with it, and in many ways commendable, but I can't help thinking that a simple printed screen shot of the TfL rules regarding photography should be carried and presented to any official calling photographers to account provided no flashes or tripods are in evidence and no out of bounds areas have been encroached. If argument persists, requiring the accusers name to present to his/her line manager alongside the rules should be de rigeuer IMHO. Personally, I wouldn't stand for being told off where the rules are clearly to the contrary.
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Post by MoreToJack on Aug 27, 2016 11:43:21 GMT
It's okay, even staff get challenged (and told we're incorrect) sometimes, even after ID is produced.
Pleased to hear that you've contacted the company. I expect you'll be given something that you can print saying that photography is permitted without a permit for non-commercial purposes.
If it happens again please do escalate the issue further. There are regular staff briefings (via the Traffic Circular) affirming the stance on non-commercial photography.
Commercial photography (I.e. You are getting paid for it) and any form of video production is a different matter.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Aug 27, 2016 14:07:09 GMT
It's okay, even staff get challenged (and told we're incorrect) sometimes, even after ID is produced. Pleased to hear that you've contacted the company. I expect you'll be given something that you can print saying that photography is permitted without a permit for non-commercial purposes. If it happens again please do escalate the issue further. There are regular staff briefings (via the Traffic Circular) affirming the stance on non-commercial photography. Commercial photography (I.e. You are getting paid for it) and any form of video production is a different matter. Yes and there really is no excuse for staff hassling people who aren't causing a problem. Nowhere is it trained to staff that casual photography isn't allowed. Personally I can't understand why any member of staff would want to start up a completely needless potential conflict situation. The clue is in the job title - Customer Service.
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Post by marjoram on Aug 27, 2016 15:45:13 GMT
It's okay, even staff get challenged (and told we're incorrect) sometimes, even after ID is produced. Pleased to hear that you've contacted the company. I expect you'll be given something that you can print saying that photography is permitted without a permit for non-commercial purposes. If it happens again please do escalate the issue further. There are regular staff briefings (via the Traffic Circular) affirming the stance on non-commercial photography. Commercial photography (I.e. You are getting paid for it) and any form of video production is a different matter.
Thanks for your comments. I will let the forum know how LU respond, eventually. I am about to set off for a couple of weeks holiday and may not be able to post further throughout this time. Thanks once again to everybody who has taken the time to reply with their comments and thoughts. Richard M.
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 28, 2016 21:27:20 GMT
It's okay, even staff get challenged (and told we're incorrect) sometimes, even after ID is produced. Pleased to hear that you've contacted the company. I expect you'll be given something that you can print saying that photography is permitted without a permit for non-commercial purposes. If it happens again please do escalate the issue further. There are regular staff briefings (via the Traffic Circular) affirming the stance on non-commercial photography. Commercial photography (I.e. You are getting paid for it) and any form of video production is a different matter. Back in the day, by which I mean when I was younger and before camcorders were common, I used my super 8 camera at Stonebridge Park. This would have been in the mid 1980s. The footage from here and other locations on the DC route is on YouTube. Jack, I am baffled by the way you differentiate between still image photography and the use of video / moving image filming. I've not heard of this distinction before. Simon
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Post by MoreToJack on Aug 28, 2016 22:45:31 GMT
Not me, the Press Office! tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/filming-and-photography/filming-and-photography-on-tfl?intcmp=1594Photography 'whilst passing through' is exempted from the above in the Conditions of Carriage, however filming/videography is not. Practically, if an individual is filming it's unlikely they'll be stopped (Or, if they are, it'll be purely to check everything is okay, or [in the cases of more enthusiast-friendly staff] if the person needs anything), but the rules are that a non-commercial permit must be sought.
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Post by seaeagle on Aug 29, 2016 11:43:02 GMT
Sometime during the day on Friday 19th, on two separate occasions between the space of 20 minutes, two people took flash photographs at St James's Park as the train was pulling into the platform. I was surprised that the Train Op didn't say anything as the photograph was taken directly in front of the train. Sometimes it's more hassle than it's worth to do anything, you'd be surprised how many times you get 'flashed' during the day.
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 29, 2016 21:54:20 GMT
Thanks Jack.
I recall a discussion on a yahoo group a while ago because it was discovered that the enabling legislation for Tramlink expressly forbade filming at tram stops (of course by anyone other than Tramlink's CCTV cameras so that they can film us, even though we are banned from filming back).
I was told that this was to prevent large production film companies from filming in a way that potentially will make for a nuisance, get in the way of doors etc. However, the way it was worded suggests that it also applied to transport enthusiasts, even if inadvertently.
In addition to referencing LU, LO and the DLR, the pdf you quoted also says that filming in the street (on TfL controlled Red Routes) is prohibited without permission! Maybe again TfL are really aiming at large film crews blocking streets but the way that is written it includes people like me filming passing buses and tourists filming Big Ben, etc. My concern is that regulations are not promulgated without intent to enforce them and because they do not expressly exclude hand-held photography, such as by transport enthusiasts and tourists, so the day will come when these too will need advance purchase permits. We risk being worse off than the former East Germany where at least the constitution included clauses which expressly gave ordinary people the right to film trains, etc!
Simon (still hoping for a refurbished Bakerloo Line train when he has a camera in his hand!)
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 29, 2016 21:58:44 GMT
Sometime during the day on Friday 19th, on two separate occasions between the space of 20 minutes, two people took flash photographs at St James's Park as the train was pulling into the platform. I was surprised that the Train Op didn't say anything as the photograph was taken directly in front of the train. Sometimes it's more hassle than it's worth to do anything, you'd be surprised how many times you get 'flashed' during the day. If its in a station, especially nowadays when they are brightly lit, so it is possible that its not as severe as it could be. I say this because I once had someone take my photo (using a flashgun) during a night-time garden party when we had all been outdoors for quite a while and our eyes had adjusted to the conditions. The flash hurt! I was stunned, I never expected actual pain. Temporary (few seconds) partial blindness whilst my eyes readjusted was the worst that I thought was possible. Simon
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 29, 2016 22:47:15 GMT
the enabling legislation for Tramlink expressly forbade filming at tram stops Many tram stops are on the public highway so it is not within Tramlink's authority to say what can and can't be done at them.
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 30, 2016 18:44:03 GMT
I agree with you but this was included in the enabling legislation. However, if they were to ever try to use this to prosecute ordinary people who are transport enthusiasts then they'd be risking their good name in the eyes of the public.
Simon
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Post by Chris W on Aug 30, 2016 19:13:09 GMT
The fag paper width definition with regards photography between "passing through" and "filming/videography" has never been properly explained IMO. This gives the officious the power they crave to throw their weight around, although it can reflect badly upon them as they can sometimes make themselves a zero, instead of being the hero... However there are some enthusiasts out there.... a couple or more have been permanently suspected from this forum.... who have played the enthusiast being the victim card. It's all about using common sense, dignity and decency... and I say this from all sides... enthusiast towards LU and LU towards enthusiast... Please have a look at... www.districtdave.co.uk/html/photography.html
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Post by patrickb on Aug 31, 2016 18:03:16 GMT
However there are some enthusiasts out there.... a couple or more have been permanently suspected from this forum.... who have played the enthusiast being the victim card. It's all about using common sense, dignity and decency... and I say this from all sides... enthusiast towards LU and LU towards enthusiast... I'm slightly confused, what merits permanent suspension?, if that is what you meant (from reading the sentence it seems you were trying to say 'suspended' but typed 'suspected')How do conflicts which arise from the use of Photography on the London Underground effect one's membership on this forum?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2016 18:37:53 GMT
However there are some enthusiasts out there.... a couple or more have been permanently suspected from this forum.... who have played the enthusiast being the victim card. It's all about using common sense, dignity and decency... and I say this from all sides... enthusiast towards LU and LU towards enthusiast... I'm slightly confused, what merits permanent suspension?, if that is what you meant (from reading the sentence it seems you were trying to say 'suspended' but typed 'suspected')How do conflicts which arise from the use of Photography on the London Underground effect one's membership on this forum? This forum prides itself on a number of things. One of these which is key, is that we have cultivated here a forum where railway professionals and enthusiasts can discuss London Underground, allowing enthusiasts a valuable insight into the system they're passionate about, and giving us the answers to questions we couldn't even have dreamt of asking. Fundamental to this is that the enthusiasts respect railway professionals generally, not just on this site. We will not tolerate members behaving badly on the railway, mistreating its staff, trespassing, vandalising or otherwise causing trouble on the network. Another element, of course, is that we are all here because we have an interest in the system and want to see it flourish. As such, people who behave in a way that could harm it, including people who harass staff or obstruct them in carrying out their duties, are not welcome. Finally, we are proud of our reputation as a premier site for discussing the Underground, and - as I say - we have a number of former and current members of staff on our forum. We do not want our reputation tarnished by accommodating people who can't treat the Underground and its staff with respect. Obviously none of the issues surrounding photography that we've discussed in recent days are going to get anyone suspended. If a member of Underground staff behaves badly towards you, you are, of course, allowed to be upset by it and you should report the incident to the company if you see fit. We're talking about when people really make nuisances of themselves - or worse - and if that comes to the attention of forum staff, disciplinary action may be taken.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 31, 2016 18:51:03 GMT
To give an example, I understand that it became known to forum staff that one now-former member here was pestering train operators for cab rides and trespassing on the railway. The safety implications of the latter are obvious, and having an unauthorised person in the cab can lead to serious formal disciplinary procedures for the driver (doubly so if an incident were to happen, regardless of fault). If this forum were seen to be condoning such behaviour then it would seriously harm the good relationship that exists between the forum staff and senior TfL management (at least some of them, I understand, regularly read this forum) which has allowed such things as organised visits to Seven Sisters depot and line control room for members. Loss of this relationship would also potentially endanger the ability of staff to openly contribute here.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 31, 2016 18:56:15 GMT
Yes, Chris W meant to say suspended. Forum Rule 4d is relevant here:
This forum has become a premier place for the discussion of not only London Underground, but also the other railways operated by Transport for London - the forum also enjoys a respected interest at the very highest level within London Underground and other areas of T fL. (4d) Any Forum Member who gains (or attempts to gain) unauthorised access to Underground/TfL infrastructure (e.g. non-passenger areas such as train cabs/depots etc.) will have their membership permanently suspended without warning.
There are some former members of this forum who gained entry to prohibited areas by misrepresentation and this subsequently resulted in some employees finding their employment under scrutiny from their management. If you're the kind of person who takes flash photographs on platforms, whilst not holding a ticket and who then verbally abuses staff when challenged - then you're not the kind of person who is welcome on this forum.
Let me be absolutely clear, this is by far the vast minority of people.Edit to add: Apologies if that was a bit shouty, tut and Chris M have both made excellent points whilst I was redrafting the above! Lets get back to normal service now, shall we?
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Post by Chris W on Aug 31, 2016 19:55:39 GMT
Yes, Chris W meant to say suspended. Indeed I did. Apologies for any confusion. Probably a combination of fat finger syndrome, frustration at being in the far south West of Wales on my hols with Mel & the boys (lack of decent coverage) and my increasing annoyance at my Nokia phone... My main point has been picked up by others. It's important that we, as enthusiasts, represent ourselves and others who enjoy the same hobby, as decent people... To quote a recent screened Jim Jeffries stand up performance (making the reference in the monologue to America and its treatment of others), don't be the a$$h0le when speaking/dealing with people...
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class411
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Post by class411 on Sept 1, 2016 9:29:23 GMT
Sorry to be both pedantic AND off topic, but the word 'suspended' should really be replaced with 'barred' or 'banned'.
The word 'suspended' (in this context) is overwhelmingly understood to mean some temporary hiatus, and thus 'permanently suspended' appears something of an oxymoron.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Sept 1, 2016 10:27:39 GMT
Sorry to be both pedantic AND off topic, but the word 'suspended' should really be replaced with 'barred' or 'banned'. The word 'suspended' (in this context) is overwhelmingly understood to mean some temporary hiatus, and thus 'permanently suspended' appears something of an oxymoron. If District Dave's London Underground Forum ever does introduce a "Pedantry" board 411, I promise you, you'll be the first to know about it!
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Sept 1, 2016 19:03:30 GMT
Sorry to be both pedantic AND off topic, but the word 'suspended' should really be replaced with 'barred' or 'banned'. The word 'suspended' (in this context) is overwhelmingly understood to mean some temporary hiatus, and thus 'permanently suspended' appears something of an oxymoron. If District Dave's London Underground Forum ever does introduce a "Pedantry" board 411, I promise you, you'll be the first to know about it! Well, perhaps the first person who isn't a member of the forum staff...
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