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Post by q8 on Sept 8, 2005 9:50:53 GMT
If you were asked to contribute to the design of a new rolling stock for LUL, both tube and SSL what features would you consider it essential to include?
(TEA BARS are NOT essential)
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Post by piccadillypilot on Sept 8, 2005 9:52:53 GMT
(TEA BARS are NOT essential) You jest, surely?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2005 10:14:49 GMT
Personally I think a 250v 5A outlet for an electric kettle wouldn't go amiss ;-)
Seriously, I think the most important aspect of rolling stock design is the location and width of the door vestibules - the 1973TS is fairly good in this regard, in that the luggage spaces can be used to get out of people's way before getting yourself off the train. Stocks like the 1972TS are poor in this regard.
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Post by russe on Sept 8, 2005 10:21:17 GMT
Fire extinguisher. CCTV. Information screens giving LU-specific travel information, e.g. stations closed, delays. Wi-fi router for internet access.
Russ
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Post by q8 on Sept 8, 2005 10:48:01 GMT
Seriously, I think the most important aspect of rolling stock design is the location and width of the door vestibules - the 1973TS is fairly good in this regard, in that the luggage spaces can be used to get out of people's way before getting yourself off the train. Stocks like the 1972TS are poor in this regard. -----------------------------------------------------------------------
On that note TOK I am told that with these outside hung doors on modern tube stock it is possible to have doors positioned over the trucks. If that is true then do you think it would be useful to have 3 (or maybe 4) sets of double doors per car arranged in such a way that overall they are the same distance apart along the whole length of the train?
This would prevent to some extent 'bunching' of people boarding and alighting.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2005 11:00:05 GMT
I am told that with these outside hung doors on modern tube stock it is possible to have doors positioned over the trucks. You would then need to make the wheels smaller. On tube stock the tops of the wheels are above floor level: there is a slot for them beneath the longitudinal seats. Which is why all tube stock has had longitudinal seats above the bogies.
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Post by q8 on Sept 8, 2005 11:39:09 GMT
Dunno what they want big wheels for anyway? Smaller wheels with thicker tyres still just as effective.
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Post by tom2506 on Sept 8, 2005 17:24:49 GMT
Large vestibules, in car CCTV viewable from the cab, monitors in cab for platform, 240v ac power socket, cup holders in cab, display that indicated the distance to the next station, the ability to display a typed in destination.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2005 18:06:54 GMT
Seriously, I think the most important aspect of rolling stock design is the location and width of the door vestibules - the 1973TS is fairly good in this regard, in that the luggage spaces can be used to get out of people's way before getting yourself off the train. Stocks like the 1972TS are poor in this regard. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- On that note TOK I am told that with these outside hung doors on modern tube stock it is possible to have doors positioned over the trucks. If that is true then do you think it would be useful to have 3 (or maybe 4) sets of double doors per car arranged in such a way that overall they are the same distance apart along the whole length of the train? This would prevent to some extent 'bunching' of people boarding and alighting. That sounds like a good idea - if the technical issues could be overcome, the positioning of the doors at equidistant points would certainly help with heavy loadings. Basically, no one would be more than a certain distance away from a set of doors, and that can only be a Good Thing these days.
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Post by Chris M on Sept 8, 2005 19:55:02 GMT
Reliable cab to control and cab to passanger communication (that the passengers can hear, but preferably not be deafened by). Vandal-proof (or at least resistant), comfortable seating that can be replaced quickly in the event of damage. sufficient space and sufficiently large doors to allow easy wheel-chiar access. If possible, also ideal would be sloping/extending ramps at the doors to minimise the gap between the train and the platform edge. See the (not to any semblance of scale what-so-ever) diagram below The platform is black and the train is blue. Below each door is sensor (red blob) that measures the distance between the train and the platform at that point, and therefore knows how far out to extend the ramp. For height my first thought was to install a strip along the platform lip that the sensor could work out the angle to, but then I thought that as the platform height is constant and if the train knew for other reasons what station it is at, that the difference between train floor height and platform height could be programmed in, so that the floor could be angled apropriately. To avoid delays in this operation, the extending and angling and retracting should be as quick as possible. I think the technology exists to measure and extend the apropriate distance in the same time it takes the doors to open, introducing no extra delay. If the height difference is known then any angle change required of the internal floor could be done as a gradual process while the train is travelling between stations. If the movement would disrupt passengers standing on it, then you just don't do it if there is any weight (or more than a certain amount) on the moveable portion. If done gradually enough then it isn't likely to topple people, and if you make a feature of it people with balance difficulties will not stand there. If you surround the moveable area of the floor with the black and yellow hatching then other than when necessary, people are likely to stand elsewhere. When it is fully loaded, there are enough people about to balance against anyway. I don't know for certain but I would have thought that those who will benefit most from this are less likely to be travelling at times of peak loading anyway. In terms of potential problems, if you design it so that the floor returns to a neutral height in the event of failure then you are no worse off than at present. The only potential problem I see is if the extending portion gets stuck out then the train might be out of gague. This could be minimised by designing it sucht that in the event of a power failure it retracts, and in the rare event that that fails it only needs something like a member of staff to manually wind it back in or even just provide a solid application of boot. Chris
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2005 21:02:00 GMT
You would then need to make the wheels smaller. On tube stock the tops of the wheels are above floor level: there is a slot for them beneath the longitudinal seats. Which is why all tube stock has had longitudinal seats above the bogies. The 92 stock wheels were made smaller and do not pertrude above floor level. I'm unsure if this is also the case with the 95 and 96 stock.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2005 21:04:54 GMT
Dunno what they want big wheels for anyway? Smaller wheels with thicker tyres still just as effective. Aparently if the wheels are too small, you get heat build up. It's amazing what you learn from the Discovery Channel
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2005 21:13:51 GMT
If possible, also ideal would be sloping/extending ramps at the doors to minimise the gap between the train and the platform edge. For height my first thought was to install a strip along the platform lip that the sensor could work out the angle to, but then I thought that as the platform height is constant and if the train knew for other reasons what station it is at, that the difference between train floor height and platform height could be programmed in, so that the floor could be angled apropriately. To avoid delays in this operation, the extending and angling and retracting should be as quick as possible. I think the technology exists to measure and extend the apropriate distance in the same time it takes the doors to open, introducing no extra delay. If the height difference is known then any angle change required of the internal floor could be done as a gradual process while the train is travelling between stations. If the movement would disrupt passengers standing on it, then you just don't do it if there is any weight (or more than a certain amount) on the moveable portion. If done gradually enough then it isn't likely to topple people, and if you make a feature of it people with balance difficulties will not stand there. If you surround the moveable area of the floor with the black and yellow hatching then other than when necessary, people are likely to stand elsewhere. When it is fully loaded, there are enough people about to balance against anyway. I don't know for certain but I would have thought that those who will benefit most from this are less likely to be travelling at times of peak loading anyway. In terms of potential problems, if you design it so that the floor returns to a neutral height in the event of failure then you are no worse off than at present. The only potential problem I see is if the extending portion gets stuck out then the train might be out of gague. This could be minimised by designing it sucht that in the event of a power failure it retracts, and in the rare event that that fails it only needs something like a member of staff to manually wind it back in or even just provide a solid application of boot. Chris Chris. As much as I admire your thinking on this. There is too much to go wrong. A failure of these ramps in the out position would mean the service would have to be suspended because of possible damage caused to and by passing trains. I think this would be a Nono. I know they tried platform ramps in New York at one time, weather they still use them or how well they performed, I don't know
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2005 21:36:15 GMT
Dunno what they want big wheels for anyway? Smaller wheels with thicker tyres still just as effective. Aparently if the wheels are too small, you get heat build up. It's amazing what you learn from the Discovery Channel There's also a technical problem. Small wheels are less able to go around sharp bends: the flange tends to climb over the outer rail.
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Post by Colin on Sept 8, 2005 22:05:43 GMT
You would then need to make the wheels smaller. On tube stock the tops of the wheels are above floor level: there is a slot for them beneath the longitudinal seats. Which is why all tube stock has had longitudinal seats above the bogies. Really?? Where did you get that from?? The seats are longitudinal simply because it allows better movement within the car, and allows for more standees. The D stock is actually fitted with 'tube size' wheels.
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Post by Chris M on Sept 8, 2005 22:22:52 GMT
Chris. As much as I admire your thinking on this. There is too much to go wrong. A failure of these ramps in the out position would mean the service would have to be suspended because of possible damage caused to and by passing trains. I think this would be a Nono. I realise this, which is why I'm trying to make it unliekly that if they do break they will be stuck out. Possibly by having them pushed out by air pressume against a spring or something, so that if the air pressume is lost then they spring back in. All that would be required if they then did get stuck out would be to turn off the air, perhaps by use of a switch next to the ramp accessed by the control key. If it still didn't go back then it must be be jammed out - just kick it. Worst case scenario the train is delayed leaving the station, but no more so than if one of the many other potential faults that render a train unable to move had happened. The most likely failure is that they get stuck in the in position, which doesn't affect the trains ability to operate a service and can be fixed next time its in the depot. Chris
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2005 22:31:50 GMT
Really?? Where did you get that from?? The seats are longitudinal simply because it allows better movement within the car, and allows for more standees. I see you have never worked on a tube line Colin, Sidneynick is correct, the wheels do pertrude slightly through the floor on most tubestock. The way fitters used to check for flats was to lift the seats and the covering plates under the seats then shine a torch onto the wheels.
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Post by Colin on Sept 8, 2005 22:53:41 GMT
In that case I happily stand corrected. My apologies to Sidneynick
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Post by q8 on Sept 9, 2005 1:20:47 GMT
Small wheels won't over heat if they were perforated or spoked I believe.
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Post by russe on Sept 9, 2005 1:57:50 GMT
Aparently if the wheels are too small, you get heat build up. This is I think more to do with bearing design rather than the heating of the flange owing to excessive wheel to railhead speed. For this reason the HST (125mph) sets of c 1975 were fitted with 40" driving wheels, whereas much smaller wheels are now regularly fitted to high-speed vehicles owing to recent improvements in bearing design. Heat from disc brakes is a far more significant factor in modern wheel design, so yes, there is a point at which small wheels become problematic from the heat point of view. There's also a technical problem. Small wheels are less able to go around sharp bends: the flange tends to climb over the outer rail. As with most engineering matters, this is a question of degree, but in general, for the wheel diameters relevant here, that is not the case - small wheels are less prone to railhead climbing than larger ones (all other things in the suspension department being equal of course). Very large wheels, as on steam engines, have a long 'interaction length' between flange and railhead, to the extent that on sharp curves, the front inside edges of the flanges can come into contact with the inside of the railhead, a situation called 'flange grinding'. With older flange contours, this will typically occur if the angle of the wheel to the tangent of the curve is greater than 3 degrees, although with more modern contours, the wheel to curve angle can be marginally more before flange-grinding occurs I believe. Extremely small wheels will of course have a very small interaction length and area, and thus will greatly increase the pressure of wheel to railhead (not good), and the shape of the interaction area becomes less than optimum for reliability, so in extremis, railhead climbing could be more likely. Railhead-climbing is not a problem either for 3'0" diameter wheels as fitted to traditional surface stock or the 2'8" (2'7"?) diameter wheels on tube stock, but sharp curves will of course present potential dangers for either of these diameters, even on bogie stock. The interaction of a flange to the railhead is quite complicated, but it goes something like this: Russ
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2005 4:24:10 GMT
You would then need to make the wheels smaller. On tube stock the tops of the wheels are above floor level: there is a slot for them beneath the longitudinal seats. Which is why all tube stock has had longitudinal seats above the bogies. Really?? Where did you get that from?? The seats are longitudinal simply because it allows better movement within the car, and allows for more standees. Piers Connor's book on the 38TS. There's a photo of them under construction, and you can see the slot for the wheels between the longitudinal seat riser and the body side.
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Post by piccadillypilot on Sept 9, 2005 7:16:22 GMT
The first time I had to go firkling about under the seat and covering plates on a 59 it was a bit of a suprise to discover that the floor I was standing on was below the top of the wheel.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2005 8:24:54 GMT
The book "Underground Movement" deals with the design of LU rolling stock from 1920 to 2000. It concludes with some sketches of a proposed "Space Train", which shows what might be done with tube stock by using smaller motors and wheels to lower the floor, bulging the sides out at waist level to fit the tunnel more closely, and having wide connections between cars. I have put a scan of one of the sketches at www.comcen.com.au/~nickbooth/SpaceTrain.jpg. It's not clear to me whether this is practical, or just an idea from a design studio with nothing better to do. I can't help feeling it would be difficult to fit all the equipment into the small space under the floor.
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Post by piccadillypilot on Sept 9, 2005 8:34:29 GMT
It's not clear to me whether this is practical The idea of bulging the car sides is an interesting one, but the space it would occupy is currently used by the signals and signalling relay boxes etc.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2005 9:38:46 GMT
It's not clear to me whether this is practical The idea of bulging the car sides is an interesting one, but the space it would occupy is currently used by the signals and signalling relay boxes etc. Well, presumably these new trains would be controlled by magic computers and, as Q8 can tell us, computers never go wrogn. So no need for boring things like signals! Thought from another thread: I wonder how fast you could get round the Circle if there were no signals (or District trains) to delay you.....
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Post by piccadillypilot on Sept 9, 2005 10:03:12 GMT
Well, presumably these new trains would be controlled by magic computers ... So no need for boring things like signals! Which would very likely lead to even more trackside boxes full of gubbins.
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Post by Dmitri on Sept 9, 2005 10:12:02 GMT
Thought from another thread: I wonder how fast you could get round the Circle if there were no signals (or District trains) to delay you..... Should I stop at the stations and obey the speed restrictions on the way ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2005 10:30:13 GMT
Well, presumably these new trains would be controlled by magic computers ... So no need for boring things like signals! Which would very likely lead to even more trackside boxes full of gubbins. So OK: dig a suicide pit the whole length of the track and use it for signals, relays, gubbins, dead rats, whatever...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2005 10:31:02 GMT
Thought from another thread: I wonder how fast you could get round the Circle if there were no signals (or District trains) to delay you..... Should I stop at the stations and obey the speed restrictions on the way ? Why spoil the fun?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2005 10:55:13 GMT
There's also a technical problem. Small wheels are less able to go around sharp bends: the flange tends to climb over the outer rail. I belong to a 12inch guage railway, and we do not have the problem with flanges climbing over rails and we have fairly small wheels and in place quite tight curves. The way fitters used to check for flats was to lift the seats and the covering plates under the seats then shine a torch onto the wheels. This is still the case with the 73ts today. As if you lift the seats, then the flap under them, you can touch the wheel (if you so wanted to), which is not below the floor of the train.
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