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Post by stapler on Nov 1, 2015 13:58:00 GMT
The fact that the Crossrail2 consultation envisages the closure of all the LCs on the Lea Valley Line prompted me to think of LCs as they are now. There was one on the Underground till 1994, and there are at least 2 on London Overground, and hundreds throughout the UK. Many are on quiet country roads and lines. Anyone know which is the busiest, in terms of traffic moment - which in the Hixon accident was no of trains per day x no of vehicles/cycles/animals/pedestrians? Is there any theoretical or practical maximum of rail/road user a level crossing can accommodate?
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Post by Chris M on Nov 1, 2015 14:23:14 GMT
I don't know the figures, but the three most disruptive in the country are usually cited to be Lincoln High Street and Poole High Street for pedestrians, and for vehicles one on an A2x road in Sussex (can't remember the details)
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Nov 1, 2015 17:24:40 GMT
I don't know the figures, but the three most disruptive in the country are usually cited to be Lincoln High Street and Poole High Street for pedestrians, and for vehicles one on an A2x road in Sussex (can't remember the details) Before they built the Lincoln by-pass I was regularly held up for ages at the High Street level crossing, among other places in Lincoln. That by-pass was one of the best decisions ever made in the history of anything.
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Post by phil on Nov 1, 2015 17:44:10 GMT
I don't know the figures, but the three most disruptive in the country are usually cited to be Lincoln High Street and Poole High Street for pedestrians, and for vehicles one on an A2x road in Sussex (can't remember the details) The Sussex one was Beddingham across the A27 outside Lewes. Thanks to the inability of motorists in the busy A27 to obey it, trains were restricted to 20mph in the final few years. One of the reasons it hung on was the endless proposing, then cancelling of the A27 upgrade to duel carriageway between Lewes and Polgate by Central Government. They finally agreed a modest upgrade of the section between Lewes and the turning for Newhaven and the crossing was finally removed 5 years or so ago.
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Post by phil on Nov 1, 2015 18:02:07 GMT
The fact that the Crossrail2 consultation envisages the closure of all the LCs on the Lea Valley Line prompted me to think of LCs as they are now. There was one on the Underground till 1994, and there are at least 2 on London Overground, and hundreds throughout the UK. Many are on quiet country roads and lines. Anyone know which is the busiest, in terms of traffic moment - which in the Hixon accident was no of trains per day x no of vehicles/cycles/animals/pedestrians? Is there any theoretical or practical maximum of rail/road user a level crossing can accommodate? Right, firstly from a historical perspective there is no maximum level of trains / vehicles specified for full barrier crossings specified in law, and it is only really since the demise of BR that outside parties have been able to substantially influence proceedings - as the promoters of the BAA airtrack scheme found out any increase over current train frequencies will normally trigger protests from local councils which in this day and age the railway cannot ignore. Secondly as you say there is a set of criteria (including number of tracks, pedestrian volumes, traffic volumes, railway line speed, road speed limit, road user sightliness in the crossing approach, train service frequency, setting (i.e. urban / rural) against which 'Automatic' crossings (ones with half barriers) and 'open' crossings must be assessed. What may be acceptable in rural Lincolnshire on the GE / GN Joint line may not be suitable on a rural crossing over the ECML for example. If substantial changes occur (like a new housing development) it may be that the railway is forced to upgrade the crossing to a 'manned' (CCTV / OD) type (though they can require a developer contribution to the costs of the upgrade).
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Post by superteacher on Nov 1, 2015 18:04:09 GMT
Pre LT, there were level crossings at Woodford and South Woodford. Imagine if they were there now!
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Nov 1, 2015 20:33:03 GMT
Pre LT, there were level crossings at Woodford and South Woodford. Imagine if they were there now! Well, they'd both be impassable to large vehicles due to Smart Cars jutting out having been parked at 90 degrees to the kerb........ So help me god, after this weekend trying to negotiate Madeira Grove in Woodford (a road to the right and running parallel to the City bound track) a few times with a dozen or so of the things parked this way, I'm hiring a battered old Transit for the next visit - and woe betide any of the Smart Car owners who haven't worked out by then that if they can be bothered to park them in the traditional manner they don't take up much more space anyway. Anyway, I'm sure I've linked to this picture before but here it is again in all its 1938 glory, including a railway worker being shouted at by a passenger because the train is 30 seconds late.
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Post by suncloud on Nov 1, 2015 20:49:38 GMT
I remember when our family moved to the S.E. On our first visit to Woodford we were confused by the lack of level crossing. This was in the late eighties or maybe even nineties. Needless to say we bought a new a to a shortly after...
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 1, 2015 20:53:16 GMT
Probably some of the busiest from a rail perspective are the ones at Tallngton and Helpston on the ECML north of Peterborough, and the parallel Midland route to Stamford. The ones across the Windsor Lines at Manor Road, Mortlake and Priests Bridge also see a lot of rail traffiv - off peak there are 16 trains an hour. If you count the two crossings at Vine Road as one you get 20.
For crossings as busy as these, the "traffic moment" is probably an underestimate as a measure of congestion as the potential road traffic is constrained by the time the gates are actually open.
Until the 1980s there were only three north-south roads in Lincoln, spaced apart by less than half a mile, crossing the river and the three railways that ran east/west. Despite the construction of Pelham Bridge in 1958, the bypass in the 1980s and the Inner Relief Road at Brayford West about ten years ago, Lincoln High Street is as bad as ever. The situation has actually been made worse by the closure of the Avoiding Line which crossed the High street on a bridge, and the concentration of all services at Central station which, unlike St marks, is east of the High Street and thus requires all terminating trains from the west (the majority) to cross the level crossing - and gain when they go back west. The latest scheme is to build an east west route connecting the High Street to Pelham Bridge to funnel all traffic over that one route.It is not clear, but it may be that the High Street will then be pedestrianized- breaking a link that is nearly 2000 years old: the road forms part of Ermine Street.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2015 21:20:49 GMT
Pre LT, there were level crossings at Woodford and South Woodford. Imagine if they were there now! And Leytonstone, Eagle Lane, Buckhurst Hill, Theydon Bois - any more?
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Post by stapler on Nov 1, 2015 22:12:46 GMT
I think you have the tally of Central Line ex-LCs now. The nearest extant equivalent is presumably Highams Park on the LO Chingford branch. This would be a fiendishly difficult one to remove as regards motor traffic, though a pedestrian subway has existed for 100 years. Hatch Lane a mile north was only replaced 45 years ago (and was hand worked to the end). I often wondered why they bothered with Theydon in the 40s, given that the initial frequency of Central Line trains was so low there, and the B172 was hardly a motorway.
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Post by superteacher on Nov 1, 2015 22:18:49 GMT
I think you have the tally of Central Line ex-LCs now. The nearest extant equivalent is presumably Highams Park on the LO Chingford branch. This would be a fiendishly difficult one to remove as regards motor traffic, though a pedestrian subway has existed for 100 years. Hatch Lane a mile north was only replaced 45 years ago (and was hand worked to the end). I often wondered why they bothered with Theydon in the 40s, given that the initial frequency of Central Line trains was so low there, and the B172 was hardly a motorway. Maybe LT had a policy of removing level crossings, regardless of the frequency of service.
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Post by Chris M on Nov 1, 2015 22:52:12 GMT
The nearest extant equivalent is presumably Highams Park on the LO Chingford branch. This would be a fiendishly difficult one to remove as regards motor traffic, though a pedestrian subway has existed for 100 years. From looking at a map, satellite and streetview and very limited local knowledge, I can see only three ways to replace the level crossing here - none less than extremely expensive, possibly even approaching eye-wateringly expensive. 1. change the grade of the railway. This would be relatively simple from an engineering perspective as the line is basically straight. It would however require a total closure north of the nearest reversing point (at least) for the duration of the works. Some back gardens would almost certainly be lost. The station would need to be rebuilt, although there is a slim chance the existing buildings could be retained and modified. 2. build a bridge or tunnel, starting at the junction of the station access road and the main road, replacing the car park and divider between the station and The Avenue with a (likely steep) ramp (up or down) and then under or over the railway (possibly One The Avenue and/or the shed-like building on the west of the railway will need to be demolished), emerging/touching down with another (likely steep) ramp replacing the existing car park, with one building (probably budgens) needing to be demolished for access reasons. It likely that either a bridge or tunnel would require at least a short term closure of the railway here and the resulting bridge/tunnel may not be suitable for large vehicles (including buses). The existing crossing would likely have to remain for pedestrians and cyclists. 3. build a U-shaped bridge from the station access road junction with the main road, over the railway, and down onto one carriageway of the road southwest of the present crossing. This would need to flyover the station buildings, and require the demolition of at least one building west of the station, possibly two. Access between this bridge and the road northwest would be problematic at best.
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Post by stapler on Nov 2, 2015 8:28:59 GMT
Thanks, Chris - I think the more likely solution would be just to close the crossing with no replacement, making the cars travel via Larks Hall Rd, Hatch Lane, and the Avenue, or Winchester Rd, Wadham Bridge, and Hale End Rd, a mile's detour. I doubt, however, whether that would happen, given the degree of local opposition there'd be. Incidentally, in the past, a Ministry of Transport order had to be obtained to keep the gates of any LC shut across the railway, rather than across the road (so an approaching road vehicle had to hoot to get the gatekeeper to open the gates). On the Chingford branch, at Hatch Lane, the gates were still being shut across the road by default as late as 1933, and even the North Circular Road (then crossing on the level at Wadham Rd) was so treated into the 20s. The very thought of the NC crossing a railway on the level defies comprehension, even more so the cars having to hoot to summon the gateman!
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Post by peterc on Nov 2, 2015 10:51:39 GMT
As well as full vehicle crossings how many footpath crossings are there? I know of three on Romford - Upminster alone.
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Post by stapler on Nov 2, 2015 11:40:28 GMT
There must be thousands. A couple have recently been replaced by bridges on the GE ML near Chelmsford and Ingatestone
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Post by brigham on Nov 2, 2015 11:46:28 GMT
If their is an existing pedestrian subway, it might be easier to obtain a closure order. Not ideal, though. Two crossings were closed in Seaham, on the Durham coast, conditional on the provision of a foot bridge or foot crossing at each. On the same line further south, a complex three-way underpass was closed, and a level crossing substituted, when a disused portion of West Hartlepool docks was developed for retail and residential use. There is still an 'other-way-round' crossing between York and Harrogate, with a plunger to depress to summon the gateman.
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Post by stapler on Nov 2, 2015 12:59:42 GMT
Where is that one, Brigham? Wonder if it's the last in England? The one just south of Audley End on GE Cambridge mail line was the last I remember
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Post by rincew1nd on Nov 2, 2015 13:23:50 GMT
Near Wicksley.
Rail traffic isn't too frequent there, so for it to be normally closed to the road gives you an indication of how quiet the road is!
Aren't there similar ones on the Isle Of Man Railway, or did they go when they laid the sewer.
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 2, 2015 13:52:34 GMT
IIRC the Manx crossings have nearly all been automated now.
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Post by stapler on Nov 2, 2015 17:12:41 GMT
Of course, the Epping Ongar railway have just replaced the one at North Weald that was once on the Underground. I wonder if that is kept shut across the road?
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Post by Dstock7080 on Nov 2, 2015 19:02:28 GMT
This is still visible and active on the LU system for non-passenger trains:
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Post by stapler on Nov 2, 2015 21:55:56 GMT
Dstock, sorry for my ignorance; where is that?
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Post by Chris M on Nov 3, 2015 0:33:29 GMT
Possibly Neasden depot, as there is a level crossing across the southern entrance road. There is also a level crossing at the entrance to Beckton DLR depot, but it's definitely not there!
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Post by peterc on Nov 3, 2015 14:37:38 GMT
When I mentioned pedestrian crossings I did mean those on lines with various flavours of TfL trains.
As somebody mentioned GEML east of Shenfield, there is one at Mountnessing that I think has always been a footbridge but when the new A12 was build alongside the footpath users were left with a far more dangerous crossing of the road on the level which says a lot about the different levels of risk thought acceptable on rail and road.
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Post by stapler on Nov 3, 2015 15:10:24 GMT
Peter c, I think the footpath crossings of the ex GE lines that became part of the Central were replaced by bridges and/or underpasses - eg the one FP level crossing and one FP underpass between Loughton and Buckhurst Hill were combined into one footbridge, and the underpass abolished. The opportunity was also taken to remove redundant occupation crossings/bridges (one either side of Loughton station eg). Eagle Lane LC, a road that carried buses, was replaced by a pedestrian subway and the LC closed without replacement. Level crossings were much more common on early lines (pre c 1865) which is why the Loughton branch had so many. The Chingford line was not opened till 1873, but the formation north of Wood St had been sanctioned in 1864.
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Post by miff on Nov 3, 2015 20:58:56 GMT
Thanks, Chris - I think the more likely solution would be just to close the crossing with no replacement, making the cars travel via Larks Hall Rd, Hatch Lane, and the Avenue, or Winchester Rd, Wadham Bridge, and Hale End Rd, a mile's detour. I doubt, however, whether that would happen, given the degree of local opposition there'd be. Incidentally, in the past, a Ministry of Transport order had to be obtained to keep the gates of any LC shut across the railway, rather than across the road (so an approaching road vehicle had to hoot to get the gatekeeper to open the gates). On the Chingford branch, at Hatch Lane, the gates were still being shut across the road by default as late as 1933, and even the North Circular Road (then crossing on the level at Wadham Rd) was so treated into the 20s. The very thought of the NC crossing a railway on the level defies comprehension, even more so the cars having to hoot to summon the gateman! Level Crossing Orders are still made by the Secretary of State for Transport. A new Order was made for the Highams Park crossing a few years ago when the signal box was decommissioned and the barriers converted to cctv remote control.
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Post by miff on Nov 3, 2015 21:22:29 GMT
Of course, the Epping Ongar railway have just replaced the one at North Weald that was once on the Underground. I wonder if that is kept shut across the road? As far back as I can remember this crossing has always been kept shut across the road, which appears to be a little used private road (which I would guess may also have a public right of way of some kind). In LUL days the gates were unpainted, not like the traditional LC gates now installed.
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Post by stapler on Nov 3, 2015 22:42:56 GMT
Miff, do you know where copies of such DfT orders can be found?
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Post by miff on Nov 4, 2015 17:12:38 GMT
I guess DfT or Network Snail would provide them on request. I might have a copy of one for Highams Park, I'll look. There might not be one for North Weald if the method of control has never changed, or if the road is not a highway.
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