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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 18:48:03 GMT
I didn't particularly want to loop back to Wimbledon, but my choices were constrained since my goal was to meet TfL's criteria for Crossrail 2. They require that CR2 relieves the Northern and Victoria lines. Balham and the Tooting stations relieve the Northern, while Streatham will relieve the Victoria and Northern (as some who take buses from Streatham to reach the tube today would take the new line instead).
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Post by melikepie on May 20, 2016 9:52:23 GMT
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Post by Jerome H on May 20, 2016 15:15:41 GMT
I can't believe I looked through the whole thing. Some of the percentages on comment add up to more than 100%. What's interesting is that it seems Balham and Tooting has much more support for Totting, while Ally Pally vs Wood Green seems to be split, especially from different interest groups. I need to look at a map to see how close Euston and St. Pancras are. A conjoined Euston-Kings Cross TfL complex seems like something that must be heavily designed to ease congestion and also act as a flagship station complex. I wonder how pressure might increase on the Vicc to Kings Cross as CR2 passengers might switch to the Circle/H&C or even the Picc to Aresnal for games.
What I don't understand in the Wood Green/Turnpike Lane option (as well as others that I'm not as knowledgable) is how the listed architecture would be retained. Turnpike Lane seems like it could adopt another line with less damage, but Wood Green is a very tight station. That didn't seem to be an issue for those areas, expect for English Heritage.
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Post by theblackferret on May 20, 2016 15:22:32 GMT
I can't believe I looked through the whole thing. Some of the percentages on comment add up to more than 100%. What's interesting is that it seems Balham and Tooting has much more support for Totting, while Ally Pally vs Wood Green seems to be split, especially from different interest groups. I need to look at a map to see how close Euston and St. Pancras are. A conjoined Euston-Kings Cross TfL complex seems like something that must be heavily designed to ease congestion and also act as a flagship station complex. I wonder how pressure might increase on the Vicc to Kings Cross as CR2 passengers might switch to the Circle/H&C or even the Picc to Aresnal for games. What I don't understand in the Wood Green/Turnpike Lane option (as well as others that I'm not as knowledgable) is how the listed architecture would be retained. Turnpike Lane seems like it could adopt another line with less damage, but Wood Green is a very tight station. That didn't seem to be an issue for those areas, expect for English Heritage. When Mrs tbf & I did some abandoned Tube station photography in 2013, we took the Tube from Euston to Kings Cross, rather than walk-think it was down in the book as over half-a-mile, so if that is the case, nowhere near close enough to make a complex, I would think. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 20, 2016 15:48:13 GMT
how the listed architecture would be retained. Listing does not preclude alteration, or even demolition - it just makes it much harder to get permission. (In 1990 British Rail had to apply for permission to replace the listed bridge over the River Ness, with a new viaduct . This was despite the "listed building" having already been swept away by a storm the previous year, isolating the entire "Far North" network). we took the Tube from Euston to Kings Cross, rather than walk-think it was down in the book as over half-a-mile, so if that is the case, nowhere near close enough to make a complex, I would think. The closest points of Euston and St Pancras are about 400metres apart. Between the entrances to the Tube stations, about double that. But you will walk almost as far underground if you take the Tube.
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Post by theblackferret on May 20, 2016 16:00:03 GMT
we took the Tube from Euston to Kings Cross, rather than walk-think it was down in the book as over half-a-mile, so if that is the case, nowhere near close enough to make a complex, I would think. The closest points of Euston and St Pancras are about 400metres apart. Between the entrances to the Tube stations, about double that. But you will walk almost as far underground if you take the Tube. Thanks-that still seems a considerable gap to bridge in terms of making one site, whether through length of walkways below, or property acquisition/alteration above ground. |
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vato
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Post by vato on May 20, 2016 16:06:25 GMT
I'd expect the British Library to present some difficulties with this anyway.
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Post by John Tuthill on May 20, 2016 18:26:06 GMT
I'd expect the British Library to present some difficulties with this anyway. Does anyone know how many floors they have below ground? |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on May 20, 2016 19:29:40 GMT
A group of my friends decided to find out which was the swiftest way from Platform 9¾ to Euston concourse. Some went on foot, some the underground and one fool wanted to catch the bus; the rule was no running. The underground won as a train was in the platform when they arrived at the platform, followed very shortly by the foot team. The bus was late, as usual.
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Post by snoggle on May 20, 2016 20:02:32 GMT
I'd expect the British Library to present some difficulties with this anyway. The new Francis Crick institute are the ones kicking up the fuss about CR2. They're saying the line will run under their new building and "upset" all their expensive fancy equipment. If you consider what is already under Euston and Kings Cross then it's pretty clear that CR2 would have to be somewhat to the north of both stations and pretty deep to get under everything. I doubt the British Library is too much of an issue but I haven't checked the CR2 route in particular detail to verify this. I do know where the F Crick institute is though! (checks safeguarding) Most of the British Library site is outside of the safeguarded CR2 alignment. Given the sheer scale of Crossrail type stations I don't see much of an issue about a double ended KX / Euston CR2 station being able to connect into the respective main line stations. Sure some of the connections are going to be very long but that's true for CR1 stations too. It's not exactly going to be a breeze to change between the Met and Crossrail at Farringdon or between the Northern and Crossrail at Moorgate. People will be walking / using stairs and escalators for several minutes to interchange. Get on the "wrong" end of a busy CR train and you'll have a heck of walk if the station exit you want is at the opposite end to where you boarded. You won't be doing 2 minute mad dashes from Crossrail to the Anglia main line platforms at Liverpool Street. It'll be a 4-5 min mad dash assuming you're very quick on your feet and good at dodging past people. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on May 20, 2016 21:07:35 GMT
It's not exactly going to be a breeze to change between the Met and Crossrail at Farringdon It's not exactly a breeze to change between the northbound Thameslink and northbound/westbound Met at Farringdon if you need to use lifts. I did this with my mother to avoid what I knew was a long walk from SPILL to King's Cross mainline. I'm not sure we actually saved any walking distance at all (we were on a short TL train that stopped at the far west end of Farringdon, the signs directed us all the way back to the east end, up to the NR ticket hall, down to the southbound NR platform, half way along that then I think I just carried her luggage up a short flight of stairs rather than figure out how to get up to the LU level step-free. |
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Post by snoggle on Jul 7, 2016 16:16:26 GMT
Crossrail 2 have published a "response to issues raised" from the last round of consultation. Final decisions have not been reached on the route options nor have all station designs / locations been finalised. Some effort is being made to reduce the impact of worksites in a number of locations. consultations.tfl.gov.uk/crossrail2/october2015/user_uploads/rtir.pdf |
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Post by musicman on Jul 30, 2016 10:58:35 GMT
I can't believe I looked through the whole thing. Some of the percentages on comment add up to more than 100%. What's interesting is that it seems Balham and Tooting has much more support for Totting, while Ally Pally vs Wood Green seems to be split, especially from different interest groups. I need to look at a map to see how close Euston and St. Pancras are. A conjoined Euston-Kings Cross TfL complex seems like something that must be heavily designed to ease congestion and also act as a flagship station complex. I wonder how pressure might increase on the Vicc to Kings Cross as CR2 passengers might switch to the Circle/H&C or even the Picc to Aresnal for games. What I don't understand in the Wood Green/Turnpike Lane option (as well as others that I'm not as knowledgable) is how the listed architecture would be retained. Turnpike Lane seems like it could adopt another line with less damage, but Wood Green is a very tight station. That didn't seem to be an issue for those areas, expect for English Heritage. As I understand it, the plan in Wood Green is to knock down the building containing the cinema opposite the existing station and have a second entrance on that site to the south. consultations.tfl.gov.uk/crossrail2/october2015/user_uploads/s2.pdf |
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Post by snoggle on Feb 1, 2017 14:17:43 GMT
An update on CR2 progress from the TfL Commissioner's Report.
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Post by stapler on Feb 1, 2017 16:45:08 GMT
What a horrible dose of urban intensification!
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Post by phil on Feb 2, 2017 1:25:47 GMT
What a horrible dose of urban intensification! Yup However the DfT have made it crystal clear that not enough housing = not enough users to make the thing viable. Hence the doubts about the Southgate branch on the official analysis of the scheme. so the message is you had better get used to lots more urban intensification in future because thats how big new transport projects must be funded apparently. |
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Post by snoggle on Feb 2, 2017 8:38:29 GMT
What a horrible dose of urban intensification! Yup However the DfT have made it crystal clear that not enough housing = not enough users to make the thing viable. Hence the doubts about the Southgate branch on the official analysis of the scheme. so the message is you had better get used to lots more urban intensification in future because thats how big new transport projects must be funded apparently. Have they? Is the 200,000 homes number a new or increased value? I didn't think it was. I'm struggling a tiny bit with the concept that CR2 won't have enough passengers given it's designed to relieve multiple sections of the tube and rail network which are stated as being horrendously overloaded and likely to get even worse. Yes support to regeneration and new housing in some designated areas is part of the package but surely that's not the sole determinant of the scheme proceeding? If it is we might as well stop work now because 200,000 new homes will never support £20+bn worth of expenditure on a cross London railway line. |
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Post by grahamhewett on Feb 2, 2017 9:32:28 GMT
snoggle - absolutely - a typical PIC/CIL contribution from developers tends to be £1-2k per dwelling; even at £10k/dwelling, that's going to raise a mere £2bn - a spit in the ocean for CR2's cost.
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Post by rebeltc130 on Jul 1, 2017 21:06:37 GMT
Though the route for Crossrail 2 has yet to be finalized, what are the likely proposed plans for the future eastern branch from Hackney if it does end up being approved?
Is it still envisioned that Crossrail 2’s Proposed Eastern Branch if finalized would eventually take over the Epping branch of the Central line (from Leytonstone) which some have suggested or have other alternative routes for the proposed Eastern Branch been considered?
Not whether this particular thread belongs in the feasible sub-forum as it is more a question to get an idea as to what is currently being discussed and possible rather than a suggestion.
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Post by phil on Jul 1, 2017 23:54:20 GMT
Whoa there - you are getting far to carried away with yourself there.
NO official work has been done on the possible Eastern branch (other than to admit it is a theoretical possibility at some unspecified time in the future) as all key stakeholders are determined to get the Broxbourne + New Southagate options approved which removes the immediate need for any Eastern branch. If CR2 gets built as planed its quite possible that a North Greenwich situation* might occur even if passive provision is made for a 3rd northern branch.
*(As in build the necessary junction tunnels so as not to disrupt the as built railway should an extra branch be added later - only to find that demand on the as built route is far too great to be able to take advantage of them and add the branch anyway.
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Post by rebeltc130 on Jul 2, 2017 4:49:32 GMT
Understand it is all speculation at the moment and that it is likely the CR2 eastern branch does not happen, simply interested to know the potential routes such a branch would likely take down the road if it did happen or was somehow re-purposed into another Crossrail route.
Can see why some would currently suggest the CR2 eastern branch take over all / part of the Central line's Epping branch given its usage by consumers coming further afield from deep into Essex and beyond (though would argue the Hainault via Newbury Park branch is a lot more crowded during rush hour), just interested to know of the likely alternatives through the east / northeast that do not appear to potentially conflict with CR1 or entail butchering the Central line.
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Post by crusty54 on Jul 2, 2017 5:49:08 GMT
The Epping branch takeover was proposed for the Chelsea - Hackney route and would have been worked by the same size trains as the Central line.
Time has moved on. A dual carriageway has been built next to Leytonstone station which restricts the options and any new line will have full size trains which wouldn't be able to share track and platforms with the Central line.
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Post by rebeltc130 on Jul 2, 2017 8:16:14 GMT
The Epping branch takeover was proposed for the Chelsea - Hackney route and would have been worked by the same size trains as the Central line. Time has moved on. A dual carriageway has been built next to Leytonstone station which restricts the options and any new line will have full size trains which wouldn't be able to share track and platforms with the Central line. Understand though would it not still be possible for CR2 to take over the Epping branch from Chingford via Loughton (since both overground and sub-surface appear to be options) or have other options been explored since then such as re-joining the main CR2 branch at Tottenham Hale from Hackney via Clapton (or from Hackney to Tottenham Hale via Stratford International and Lea Bridge) or a different route towards the east / northeast altogether? |
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Post by aslefshrugged on Jul 2, 2017 10:47:28 GMT
Deja Vu
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jul 2, 2017 11:05:55 GMT
a North Greenwich situation* might occur even if passive provision is made for a 3rd northern branch. *(As in build the necessary junction tunnels so as not to disrupt the as built railway should an extra branch be added later - only to find that demand on the as built route is far too great to be able to take advantage of them and add the branch anyway. See also the 111-year old step-plate junctions at South Kensington (Picc), still waiting for the first Deep Level District services to Mansion House. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jul 2, 2017 11:12:07 GMT
would it not still be possible for CR2 to take over the Epping branch from Chingford via Loughton (since both overground and sub-surface appear to be options) Leyton to Epping was originally built to main line gauge. (The section from to Loughton is the oldest section of railway on the Underground, having been opened by the GER in 1856, seven years before the first section of the Metropolitan - the extension to Epping opened in 1865) |
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Post by superteacher on Jul 2, 2017 12:29:08 GMT
<<Posts from the recent FRIPAS thread have been moved in here to prevent thread duplication.>>
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Post by malcolmffc on Jul 7, 2017 16:23:05 GMT
Looks like the Chelsea station has been dropped from the route. I sense an air of desperation from TfL to get the government to pay for the scheme - dropping the one station that was a new build from the project should save a few £bn
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Dom K
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Post by Dom K on Jul 7, 2017 16:29:21 GMT
Looks like the Chelsea station has been dropped from the route. I sense an air of desperation from TfL to get the government to pay for the scheme - dropping the one station that was a new build from the project should save a few £bn Is this facts or are you assuming this? If it’s facts can you post the source of your comments |
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Post by phil on Jul 7, 2017 16:52:46 GMT
The Epping branch takeover was proposed for the Chelsea - Hackney route and would have been worked by the same size trains as the Central line. Time has moved on. A dual carriageway has been built next to Leytonstone station which restricts the options and any new line will have full size trains which wouldn't be able to share track and platforms with the Central line. Understand though would it not still be possible for CR2 to take over the Epping branch from Chingford via Loughton (since both overground and sub-surface appear to be options) or have other options been explored since then such as re-joining the main CR2 branch at Tottenham Hale from Hackney via Clapton (or from Hackney to Tottenham Hale via Stratford International and Lea Bridge) or a different route towards the east / northeast altogether? I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Any similarity between CR2 and the previous Chelsea - Hackney tube is confined merely to the route through central London and the goals of serving the Chelsea / Wimbledon and Hackney areas. CR2 has been, for a long time now (even the 'metro version'), been a line built to accommodate UK standard gauge trains - NOT tube sized ones. As such if CR2 were somehow routed to Epping via the current central line (which has had numerous alterations to odd bits of infrastructure - plus new build stuff like the structures associated with the A12 at Leytonstone, then serious rebuilding involving significant line closures) would be needed. |
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