roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,275
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Post by roythebus on Oct 3, 2015 9:18:38 GMT
Following on from an earlier thread on the Earls Court-Olympia service (maybe the mods can merge this?) I note Sullivan Buses appear to be running a replacement service in September and October. It's probably cheaper and easier than disrupting the main DR service by pathing the shuttles through the busy Earls Court junctions and saves the hassle of formally withdrawing the service.
Next replacements are Mon 5th October-Fri 9th October, 13th-16th October, then 23rd October.
Thread title amended by superteacher.
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Post by Red Dragon on Oct 3, 2015 9:26:30 GMT
Following on from an earlier thread on the Earls Court-Olympia service (maybe the mods can merge this?) I note Sullivan Buses appear to be running a replacement service in September and October. It's probably cheaper and easier than disrupting the main DR service by pathing the shuttles through the busy Earls Court junctions and saves the hassle of formally withdrawing the service. Next replacements are Mon 5th October-Fri 9th October, 13th-16th October, then 23rd October. , Any ideas what buses this is using? This sounds strange...
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Post by crusty54 on Oct 3, 2015 15:49:42 GMT
It doesn't feature on the engineering works TfL page.
It could be a supplementary service for Olympia shows which don't justify a train service.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 4, 2015 8:51:10 GMT
Since Christmas 2014 the Olympia train service has not run on weekdays, except Bank Holiday Mondays. The bus replacement has operated many times though and is for when the service is required to start earlier than 0953, that the timetabled 30-min weekday trains could operate.
Dates this year of the replacement bus: 12-13/01, 20/2, 25-26/02, 28/02-1/03, 10-11/03, 20/03, 23-27/03, 30/03-6/04 inclusive, 14-16/04, 21-22/04, 8/05, 11-14/05, 18-20/05, 27-28/05, 2-4/06, 10-11/05, 18/06, 24-25/06, 27-28/06, 3/07, 17/07, 1-4/08 inclusive, 11-14/08, 7-8/09, 23-25/09, 30/09-1/10, 5-9/10, 13-16/10, 23/10, 3-6/11, 13/11, 25-28/11 inclusive, 3-4/12, beyond this not finalised.
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Post by wimblephil on Oct 4, 2015 10:12:19 GMT
Is there actually a useful purpose for the Olympia service? As much as possible, they seem to prefer not to run it. They make announcements at Earls Court all the time like it's an extremely popular service that people need lots of advice on alternative routes. But is it really? Is it only not withdrawn altogether because it can be a convenient location to turn back trains when needed?
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Post by superteacher on Oct 4, 2015 10:23:56 GMT
Is there actually a useful purpose for the Olympia service? As much as possible, they seem to prefer not to run it. They make announcements at Earls Court all the time like it's an extremely popular service that people need lots of advice on alternative routes. But is it really? Is it only not withdrawn altogether because it can be a convenient location to turn back trains when needed? Operationally, it's a pain because of the pathing through the busy Earls Court area. When the SSR is upgraded, the frequency on the District and Circle lines will be greater, meaning even fewer paths would be available. It is, however, a useful place to reverse late running trains, and also provides access to Lillie Bridge depot.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 4, 2015 19:38:02 GMT
Is there actually a useful purpose for the Olympia service? As much as possible, they seem to prefer not to run it. They make announcements at Earls Court all the time like it's an extremely popular service that people need lots of advice on alternative routes. But is it really? Is it only not withdrawn altogether because it can be a convenient location to turn back trains when needed? I think LU will find it impossible to withdraw any tube station or shut a tube station completely. There was a lot of political fuss over Olympia's reduced service and I expect a future Mayor may actually demand TfL reinstates the old service level. I also expect the debate over Watford Met is far from finished. I know there are potentially compelling arguments in favour of more frequent / new services away from any closed bit but I suspect there is the principle of removing service when the network is over burdened with demand. That flies in the face of "political logic" regardless of whatever other logic there may.
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 4, 2015 22:04:52 GMT
I could be totally wrong here but the way I understand things the primary reason why Earls Court is capacity constrained is because its a timing point so trains often dwell there.
Also, its a staff change over point.
So, trains are less likely to depart immediately after arriving.
If what I say is correct then maybe part of the solution is make (for trains travelling towards Earls Court) West Kensington, West Brompton and Gloucester Road timing points - as then there will be more capacity at Earls Court.
Simon
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Oct 5, 2015 10:33:20 GMT
I could be totally wrong here but the way I understand things the primary reason why Earls Court is capacity constrained is because its a timing point so trains often dwell there. Also, its a staff change over point. So, trains are less likely to depart immediately after arriving. If what I say is correct then maybe part of the solution is make (for trains travelling towards Earls Court) West Kensington, West Brompton and Gloucester Road timing points - as then there will be more capacity at Earls Court. Simon The issues mentioned above don't help, but the main reason is conflicting moves crossing on the level. The worst conflict is on the east, where every Wimbledon-Edgware Road train must cross the main line. The Olympia service worsens an already bad situation. On the west, an Olympia service has to cross the westbound main line on the level at Earl's Court, then later the eastbound at the branch junction. On the east, it adds further trains to the conflict mentioned above. Add in a political dimension - Wimbledon passengers waiting for their busy trains seeing empty Olympia trains come and go - and it's easy to see why the change was made.
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Post by melikepie on Oct 5, 2015 11:42:47 GMT
People talk about the closure of the Olympia branch. There is demand for the service as it shows that, for example, there are over half a million more journeys than Mill Hill East.
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paulsw2
My Train Runs For Those Who Wait Not Wait For Those That Run
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Post by paulsw2 on Oct 5, 2015 13:03:47 GMT
Once all the D stock has gone Edgware Road services could start from Ealing or Richmond this would help free up conflicting moves at Earls Court i.e. train leaves Ealing Bdy travels to Edgware road (via plat 1 at Earls Court) return trip to Wimbledon (via Plat 4) on its journey back from Wimbledon it is a Tower Hill train (via Plat 2) it then could return towards Ealing/Richmond, And repeat..... This would mean that there is far fewer conflicting train movements and thus increase throughput.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 5, 2015 14:16:50 GMT
Edgware Road services could start from Ealing or Richmond i.e. train leaves Ealing Bdy travels to Edgware road (via plat 1 at Earls Court) return trip to Wimbledon (via Plat 4) on its journey back from Wimbledon it is a Tower Hill train (via Plat 2) it then could return towards Ealing/Richmond, And repeat..... It would - but it would be very confusing having direct trains from Richmond to E Rd but none back, and likewise E Rd to Wimbledon but not in the contrary direction. Try drawing a Tube map that shows that service pattern! People talk about the closure of the Olympia branch. There is demand for the service as it shows that, for example, there are over half a million more journeys than Mill Hill East. Indeed, but it disrupts many more. Changing at West Brompton instead of Earls Court would be no great hardship for most of them.
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 5, 2015 23:58:18 GMT
In the same way that the Edgware Road service is not specified as commencing at Wimbledon so there would be no need to show trains to Edgware Road from other destinations on the map.
To help avoid confusing passengers it could even be that it would be better to give these trains Earls Court destinations which are changed to Edgware Road at West Kensington (or Earls Court itself).
Also, I feel sure that if a good PR spin master was to become involved the passengers could be told how the service is being improved by some trains from x travelling to y instead of z! If train frequencies were actually increased then this could even be promoted as happening - even if only by one train an hour off-peak and at weekends.
Maybe another way to reduce (some of) the conflicts would be for Olympia trains to run to Edgware Road.
Its a pity that Gloucester Road and South Kensington have fewer tracks and platforms than they used to, as these could have acted as terminating points for trains from the west (eg: Olympia shuttle or extra trains to Wimbledon) which insufficient track capacity would not permit to run further east. Maybe if South Kensington was ever to be rebuilt with greater capacity (perhaps funded by selling the air space above the station for a block of flats) then extra platforms to facilitate this could be included in the project.
Simon
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 6, 2015 9:13:43 GMT
During the forthcoming Ealing blockade, a 20min train service will be provided to/from Olympia in the peaks only, running from both Tower Hill and Upminster.
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Post by Tomcakes on Oct 6, 2015 18:35:58 GMT
Its a pity that Gloucester Road and South Kensington have fewer tracks and platforms than they used to, as these could have acted as terminating points for trains from the west (eg: Olympia shuttle or extra trains to Wimbledon) which insufficient track capacity would not permit to run further east. Maybe if South Kensington was ever to be rebuilt with greater capacity (perhaps funded by selling the air space above the station for a block of flats) then extra platforms to facilitate this could be included in the project. Ostensibly, South Kensington is to be rebuilt in the next few years - which it is long overdue for, being way too small for the number of people who need to use it. The only current manifestation is some new dot-matrix indicators - one of which displays nothing, which is far more useful than the randomly selected destinations that the previous one did! It could, perhaps, double up as a regulating point on the w/b if one of the disused platforms were to be reinstated?
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Post by wimblephil on Oct 6, 2015 21:46:18 GMT
During the forthcoming Ealing blockade, a 20min train service will be provided to/from Olympia in the peaks only, running from both Tower Hill and Upminster. So does it become quite a key termination point during times like this? Could the service survive without it? (Has the loss of the Putney Bridge bay road caused many headaches?) I guess trains could tip out at Earls Court and still run along that branch to be turned? But I suspect de-training at Earls Court would be a nightmare!?
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Oct 6, 2015 22:53:43 GMT
I would have thought tipping out at Olympia wouldn't be too bad as the Train Op has to change ends anyway. Tipping out then continuing the same direction ety seems like a bit of a faff. Obviously Putney bay has the same advantage, but now aren't the reversals done via the bridge?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Oct 7, 2015 0:00:31 GMT
It used to be standard on the Bakerloo for trains to tip-out northbound at Willesden Junction, then continue empty through Harlesden and Stonebridge Park to reverse in the depot. After reversal they entered service southbound from Stonebridge Park. I think this stopped at about the time London Overground took over the Watford DC and Stonebridge Park became staffed, so now they tip out there northbound if reversing in the depot.
Tipping out and then continuing the same direction will also happen at Upminster, Acton Town, Northfields, Barking, Ruislip Gardens, Neasden, Wembley Park (siding northbound, Neasde] depot southbound), Hillingdon (Uxbridge sidings), Oakwood, Grange Hill (ex Roding Valley), Debden, Newbury Park, West Ham (Jubilee), Green Park (reversing at Charing Cross), Waterloo Jubilee (when using west to east crossover), Seven Sisters, Vitoria (Victoria Line), Euston (Northern), King's Cross (Victoria) (and probably several other places too) when heading to nearby sidings, depots, crossovers, etc.
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Post by MoreToJack on Oct 7, 2015 0:15:13 GMT
I would have thought tipping out at Olympia wouldn't be too bad as the Train Op has to change ends anyway. Tipping out then continuing the same direction ety seems like a bit of a faff. Obviously Putney bay has the same advantage, but now aren't the reversals done via the bridge? Yes, everything that turns there now has to be done via the bridge; the bay road has been decommissioned and disconnected, and is too short to accommodate S7 or D78 stock units.
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Post by philthetube on Oct 7, 2015 6:13:18 GMT
Trains regularly tip out at Harrow on the Hill when reversing at Neasden depot during disruption, as, for example, this morning. This is to avoid delays to the service as trains can run around either platform, and also to make it easier for passengers as they do not need to use an overbridge to change trains as they may have to do at Wembley.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 7, 2015 9:42:16 GMT
Tipping out and then continuing the same direction will also happen at .................. Rayners Lane I have also seen it done at Hammersmith and Acton Town (eastbound)
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 7, 2015 9:45:00 GMT
the bay road has been decommissioned and disconnected, and is too short to accommodate S7 or D78 stock units. When I passed through on Saturday, the track in the bay platform appeared to have been not just disconnected but removed. The buffer stop is still there though, as is the "next train" indicator!
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vato
Zone 6D - Special Fares Apply
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Post by vato on Oct 7, 2015 11:57:47 GMT
Trains regularly tip out at Harrow on the Hill when reversing at Neasden depot during disruption, as, for example, this morning. This is to avoid delays to the service as trains can run around either platform, and also to make it easier for passengers as they do not need to use an overbridge to change trains as they may have to do at Wembley. This is true, but I don't think it is easier for passengers overall, and certainly not for the ones destined for northwick park or who would swap to the jubilee anyway. The remainder just have to mill around and then crush onto the next train that runs south, and often have to change at wembley park anyway as the disruption is often continuing. (I'm not saying it isn't the appropriate way to deal with the disruption for the service as a whole, but that's a different aspect)
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Post by superteacher on Oct 7, 2015 17:52:46 GMT
There are lots more, as Chris alluded to in his post. Mod comment: Let's not use this thread to start a list of places where trains can reverse!
The thread below contains loads of info about reversing points.
districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/23800/reversing
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 7, 2015 20:31:30 GMT
Ostensibly, South Kensington is to be rebuilt in the next few years - which it is long overdue for, being way too small for the number of people who need to use it. The only current manifestation is some new dot-matrix indicators - one of which displays nothing, which is far more useful than the randomly selected destinations that the previous one did! It could, perhaps, double up as a regulating point on the w/b if one of the disused platforms were to be reinstated? I think that the escalators from the ticket hall to the Piccadilly Line blocks the access to the former platform. Simon
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Post by theblackferret on Oct 7, 2015 20:38:21 GMT
Am I getting the wrong impression, or is this service a bit of an operational inconvenience, apart from being part-time, as it were?
If it is, what happens if the replacement buses are jammed to the gunwhales with exhibitionistas?
Or, what happens if the buses run empty?
And, in both those scenarios, then what happens if the event organisers report no reduction in entrances/footfall/hoofbeats at the Centre?
Testing the water to see about ending the service if the pattern gets repeated next year as well?
BR were notorious for doing this before & after Beeching to ensure passenger numbers using fell far enough to put an X in the viability box.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Oct 7, 2015 22:08:24 GMT
I think that the escalators from the ticket hall to the Piccadilly Line blocks the access to the former platform. The escalator shaft cuts through the trackbed of the is former westbound District Line (the southernmost of the four tracks). there appears to be nothing much to prevent reinstatement of the former eastbound Met (the most northerly). However, assuming the cuurent eastbound (original w/bd Met) were to become a reversing platform, it would be difficult to connect to the existing westbound as they use separate tunnels as far as Gloucester Road.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 2:41:57 GMT
the bay road has been decommissioned and disconnected, and is too short to accommodate S7 or D78 stock units. When I passed through on Saturday, the track in the bay platform appeared to have been not just disconnected but removed. The buffer stop is still there though, as is the "next train" indicator! But the monitors are still working and are obviously maintained despite being unused for 2 years.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 2:54:32 GMT
Well those indicators are the most accurate on the network, not (presumably) showing any trains
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Post by Dstock7080 on Oct 11, 2015 9:18:25 GMT
When I passed through on Saturday, the track in the bay platform appeared to have been not just disconnected but removed. The buffer stop is still there though, as is the "next train" indicator! The hydraulic buffer stop has now gone, although parts of the concrete base remain. A membrane and ballast for the new track have now been laid.
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