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Post by silenthunter on Mar 15, 2017 16:58:48 GMT
I had a ride on this line today. Aside from the fact that I rather like the little 172s from my one ride on them, I noticed that a lot of the masts are up but that the bit where the wires actually go has been turned 90 degrees so it is is parallel with the track for the time being.
Also, no 'car stop' signage yet for the new stock.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 15, 2017 18:44:26 GMT
I had a ride on this line today. Aside from the fact that I rather like the little 172s from my one ride on them, I noticed that a lot of the masts are up but that the bit where the wires actually go has been turned 90 degrees so it is is parallel with the track for the time being. Also, no 'car stop' signage yet for the new stock. I doubt you'll find new car stop signs appearing until much later in the year when the first train appears for testing / gauging / clearanc purposes. Probably some time in the Autumn - assuming we have wires up and plugged in by then. Still waiting to see what emerges in terms of a programme of closures to actually complete the work although I'm not expecting much wiring work of any great substance will happen before June. |
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Post by crusty54 on Mar 15, 2017 19:51:27 GMT
I understand a mini blockade has been requested for September as well as the weekend closures.
Think this will be when most of the wiring goes up.
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Post by dazz285 on Mar 15, 2017 20:16:44 GMT
We were told that some weekend closures & a 9 day block in August.. Will have to wait & see what they decide.
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Post by alpinejohn on Mar 16, 2017 18:16:44 GMT
As I think I said before, the "new" BHRd built by BR was done on the ultimate cheap - narrow platforms, no canopies, no ease of access. The old BHP was a commodious station with wide platforms. The number of people using the narrow platform now, let alone on electrification, is just too great. Another missed opportunity by the Mayor? Given the extant concerns about overcrowding on the BHR platforms, I was rather surprised to read the following Press Release on 2 March Mayor Unlocks BlackHorse Road land for HousingGiven someone is going to make a shed load of money out of this decision, I am astonished that the Mayor (or at least someone at TFL) did not press for some sort of planning gain contribution to widen the platforms at Blackhorse Road Station? 350 extra homes is probably going to significantly increase patronage at BHR, so why on earth did not the Mayor also demand the developers a significant contribution to upgrading this busy Overground station? Sadly I rather doubt the Local Government Ombudsman will take any interest in this sort of weird decision now their days are numbered. |
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Post by snoggle on Mar 16, 2017 18:35:05 GMT
As I think I said before, the "new" BHRd built by BR was done on the ultimate cheap - narrow platforms, no canopies, no ease of access. The old BHP was a commodious station with wide platforms. The number of people using the narrow platform now, let alone on electrification, is just too great. Another missed opportunity by the Mayor? Given the extant concerns about overcrowding on the BHR platforms, I was rather surprised to read the following Press Release on 2 March Mayor Unlocks BlackHorse Road land for HousingGiven someone is going to make a shed load of money out of this decision, I am astonished that the Mayor (or at least someone at TFL) did not press for some sort of planning gain contribution to widen the platforms at Blackhorse Road Station? 350 extra homes is probably going to significantly increase patronage at BHR, so why on earth did not the Mayor also demand the developers a significant contribution to upgrading this busy Overground station? Sadly I rather doubt the Local Government Ombudsman will take any interest in this sort of weird decision now their days are numbered. How do you know that there was not a request for a financial contribution to TfL? I assume the development will be caught by things like the Crossrail levy and possibly CIL. The other side of the equation may well be that there was a deliberate decision not to extract extra funds from the developer in order to ensure a wholly "affordable" development was provided. Unfortunately I doubt there are easy answers here. While we may think the platforms need widening TfL may well be of the opinion that absolutely no work is needed hence why nothing has been done. While I am pleased to see affordable housing being built I am concerned about the loss of the car park. It is busy throughout the week and there is no apparent idea as to where those commuters will go. Not all of them can turn up on a bus as people drive in from outside London and park there - especially at weekends for access to football fixtures and shopping in the West End. Tottenham Hale can't take up the slack and I doubt Walthamstow Central can either and we don't need more cars trying to crawl along Hoe Street. |
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Post by crusty54 on Mar 16, 2017 18:37:33 GMT
We were told that some weekend closures & a 9 day block in August.. Will have to wait & see what they decide. The late summer bank holiday is the 28th August so probably around then. |
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Post by alpinejohn on Mar 16, 2017 20:35:38 GMT
... How do you know that there was not a request for a financial contribution to TfL? I assume the development will be caught by things like the Crossrail levy and possibly CIL..
As the linked article makes clear I am pretty sure there is some expectation of funds for transport improvements although no real indication of how much or indeed for what! Hence the question mark in my post. As it stands the press release notes mostly focus on affordable housing (something I am sure is needed) and providing accessible parking spaces which I guess might count as transport improvements.
With electrification and longer trains and potential extra patronage on the short term horizon, platform crowding seems likely to be a growing problem which will simply not go away. Hence I really hope that some of this potential funding source was specifically allocated towards widening at least the most crowded sections of the station platforms.
Inherently the Overground is now becoming a victim of its own success especially compared with the depths of Silverlink. Whilst the rising patronage on GOBLIN is something TFL should be congratulated for, I rather doubt I am the only person on here who really hates standing on narrow crowded platforms? Obviously if you ignore the yellow lines (as many routinely do just to get past platform furniture) then yes the platforms are adequate. But there is very little shelter and places where the remaining available platform width is less than the width of a buggy, hence people tend to bunch up by the entrance rather than spread along with obvious impact on peak hours dwell times.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 16, 2017 23:26:27 GMT
... How do you know that there was not a request for a financial contribution to TfL? I assume the development will be caught by things like the Crossrail levy and possibly CIL..
As the linked article makes clear I am pretty sure there is some expectation of funds for transport improvements although no real indication of how much or indeed for what! Hence the question mark in my post. As it stands the press release notes mostly focus on affordable housing (something I am sure is needed) and providing accessible parking spaces which I guess might count as transport improvements.
With electrification and longer trains and potential extra patronage on the short term horizon, platform crowding seems likely to be a growing problem which will simply not go away. Hence I really hope that some of this potential funding source was specifically allocated towards widening at least the most crowded sections of the station platforms.
Inherently the Overground is now becoming a victim of its own success especially compared with the depths of Silverlink. Whilst the rising patronage on GOBLIN is something TFL should be congratulated for, I rather doubt I am the only person on here who really hates standing on narrow crowded platforms? Obviously if you ignore the yellow lines (as many routinely do just to get past platform furniture) then yes the platforms are adequate. But there is very little shelter and places where the remaining available platform width is less than the width of a buggy, hence people tend to bunch up by the entrance rather than spread along with obvious impact on peak hours dwell times.
Well if there is a funding contribution it goes to the local authority anyway. They then negotiate with TfL as to how it will be spent and when. It is relatively rare for S106 monies required by TfL to support development to go into capital works. In the cases I am aware of the money tends to fund bus route extensions (e.g. the 382 short extension near Mill Hill East or 235 extension to North Brentford Quarter) or into service enhancements (extra frequency on the 267 near Chiswick Business Park, other routes were extended there). Waltham Forest Council did manage to use S106 funds from the Olympics to part fund the reopening of Lea Bridge station but that was a rare example and they nearly ran out of time to use it given the delays in finalising funding for the new station. I agree that the platforms at Blackhorse Road are not what you call spacious and I suspect in time there will be an issue. In the current funding environment I expect TfL will postpone capital works at Blackhorse Road for as long as they possibly can and will instead try to use operational practice to manage any congestion even if it means holding people back in the ticket hall. There are other stations on the Overground that are well ahead of Blackhorse Road in terms of requiring congestion relief works but I understand that the work programme has had to be scaled back too because estimates have come in too high for the first few stations (West Hampstead, Dalston Kingsland and Hackney Central). Places like Seven Sisters (LO) have chronic congestion problems and also need accessibility works and I'd expect that to be ahead of B'horse Road too. We shall, of course, see how things develop when the new trains arrive. As an aside is patronage picking up again on the GOBLIN now people realise it's opened again? I've not been on it yet so have no idea how things are going other than knowing the trains keep conking out and there have been points failures two days in a row. |
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Post by miff on Mar 17, 2017 8:05:37 GMT
Another missed opportunity by the Mayor? Given the extant concerns about overcrowding on the BHR platforms, I was rather surprised to read the following Press Release on 2 March Mayor Unlocks BlackHorse Road land for HousingGiven someone is going to make a shed load of money out of this decision, I am astonished that the Mayor (or at least someone at TFL) did not press for some sort of planning gain contribution to widen the platforms at Blackhorse Road Station? 350 extra homes is probably going to significantly increase patronage at BHR, so why on earth did not the Mayor also demand the developers a significant contribution to upgrading this busy Overground station? Sadly I rather doubt the Local Government Ombudsman will take any interest in this sort of weird decision now their days are numbered. Regardless of any planning gain contributions TfL own the car park site and they will make a shed load of money from this redevelopment. It is then up to the Mayor to decide what to spend it on. |
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Post by stapler on Mar 17, 2017 17:09:51 GMT
The BHR project - aka Urban Intensification - is the latest wheeze to up London's population and getting the wads of notes entering TFL coffers. It will, however, make travelling by tube much less easy, especially for anyone driving in from beyond London.
C
As another example, conversion of car parks to Housing (retaining "some" parking)is planned at every station Buckhurst Hill to Epping inclusive in the infamous Epping Forest draft local plan
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 19:34:35 GMT
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Post by regp41 on May 4, 2017 12:10:19 GMT
There seems to be a Sunday closure in the offing, does anyone know if it's to do with the electrification or something else?
Ray
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Post by dazz285 on May 4, 2017 16:29:04 GMT
Paperwork just says " Major Projects, Structures Examination, Remove Rail Defects & Structures Work"
Oh & also Signal UH 1062 located at the South Tottenham end of the Down platform at Upper Holloway will be relocated to its former location
8 metres (8.75 yards) towards Crouch Hill.
Hope this helps?
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Post by regp41 on May 4, 2017 18:58:53 GMT
Thanks Dazz
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Post by rincew1nd on May 4, 2017 19:22:50 GMT
Oh & also Signal UH 1062 located at the South Tottenham end of the Down platform at Upper Holloway will be relocated to its former location 8 metres (8.75 yards) towards Crouch Hill. What's wrong with its current location? |
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Post by phil on May 4, 2017 21:21:12 GMT
While I am pleased to see affordable housing being built I am concerned about the loss of the car park. It is busy throughout the week and there is no apparent idea as to where those commuters will go. Not all of them can turn up on a bus as people drive in from outside London and park there - especially at weekends for access to football fixtures and shopping in the West End. Tottenham Hale can't take up the slack and I doubt Walthamstow Central can either and we don't need more cars trying to crawl along Hoe Street. TfLs press release specifically says the following:- "A car park user survey carried out by TfL indicated that approximately 90 per cent are travelling to this car park from locations that are closer to another TfL or Network Rail station."In other words drivers from outside the immediate area should stop driving to Blackhorse Road to take advantage of cheap fares and use stations nearer to where they live (even if that means they have to spend more on tickets). Doing away with the car park is one way of getting round the 'Epping issue' where half of Essex descends on the place to avoid the more expensive fares charged by National Rail services. |
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Post by dazz285 on May 5, 2017 2:36:29 GMT
Oh & also Signal UH 1062 located at the South Tottenham end of the Down platform at Upper Holloway will be relocated to its former location 8 metres (8.75 yards) towards Crouch Hill. What's wrong with its current location? Some time ago they moved it 8 meters towards Gospel Oak to allow for the bridge works to be carried out. Now it's all done they're moving it back. |
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Post by silenthunter on May 5, 2017 10:40:14 GMT
While I am pleased to see affordable housing being built I am concerned about the loss of the car park. It is busy throughout the week and there is no apparent idea as to where those commuters will go. Not all of them can turn up on a bus as people drive in from outside London and park there - especially at weekends for access to football fixtures and shopping in the West End. Tottenham Hale can't take up the slack and I doubt Walthamstow Central can either and we don't need more cars trying to crawl along Hoe Street. TfLs press release specifically says the following:- "A car park user survey carried out by TfL indicated that approximately 90 per cent are travelling to this car park from locations that are closer to another TfL or Network Rail station."In other words drivers from outside the immediate area should stop driving to Blackhorse Road to take advantage of cheap fares and use stations nearer to where they live (even if that means they have to spend more on tickets). Doing away with the car park is one way of getting round the 'Epping issue' where half of Essex descends on the place to avoid the more expensive fares charged by National Rail services. Makes sense in a way - TfL want to reduce congestion. |
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Post by snoggle on May 6, 2017 16:50:54 GMT
While I am pleased to see affordable housing being built I am concerned about the loss of the car park. It is busy throughout the week and there is no apparent idea as to where those commuters will go. Not all of them can turn up on a bus as people drive in from outside London and park there - especially at weekends for access to football fixtures and shopping in the West End. Tottenham Hale can't take up the slack and I doubt Walthamstow Central can either and we don't need more cars trying to crawl along Hoe Street. TfLs press release specifically says the following:- "A car park user survey carried out by TfL indicated that approximately 90 per cent are travelling to this car park from locations that are closer to another TfL or Network Rail station."In other words drivers from outside the immediate area should stop driving to Blackhorse Road to take advantage of cheap fares and use stations nearer to where they live (even if that means they have to spend more on tickets). Doing away with the car park is one way of getting round the 'Epping issue' where half of Essex descends on the place to avoid the more expensive fares charged by National Rail services. Yes and unless Waltham Forest council put in or strengthen existing parking restrictions those same people will still drive the same area and park in residential streets causing all sorts of issues. It's all jolly lovely doing surveys and then blithely hoping that people change long term habits. They rarely do if there is a substantial financial incentive as I suspect there is in this case. Once upon a time car parking was deemed an integral part of efficient public transport provision. As I said before it is fine providing additional housing but I remain sceptical about this particular development. |
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Post by dazz285 on May 9, 2017 12:25:54 GMT
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Post by domh245 on May 9, 2017 13:08:58 GMT
Needless to say, it doesn't look great. Question for those in the know, was the plan for the GOBLIN/Watford units going to be delivered before the West Anglia units. If so, I suspect that one of the options under consideration is going to be reversing the order of delivery to give NR a bit of breathing space. Or will NR be able to get wires in place first.
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Post by Chris M on May 9, 2017 13:29:15 GMT
Once the masts are up, I believe that stringing the wires is a relatively simple job - getting the masts up is the bit that is easier said than done.
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Post by snoggle on May 18, 2017 9:44:11 GMT
This week's update to the TfL Track Closure list has added a series of Sunday or all weekend closure for the GOBLIN. No sign yet of a full or part blockade in that document. No other new closures beyond the end of July either. |
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Post by crusty54 on May 18, 2017 10:11:45 GMT
This week's update to the TfL Track Closure list has added a series of Sunday or all weekend closure for the GOBLIN. No sign yet of a full or part blockade in that document. No other new closures beyond the end of July either. September has mentioned for the full closure. |
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Post by rincew1nd on Jun 12, 2017 13:00:06 GMT
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Post by snoggle on Jun 23, 2017 19:56:43 GMT
TfL have published a paper that is going to next week's Programmes and Investment Cttee. tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/pic-20170628-item20-gospel-oak-barking.pdfIn short it says that 1. It's NR's mess. 2. TfL are not "happy". 3. TfL are claiming compensation for lost revenue / rail replacement costs. 4. More closures required in the Autumn. (no dates given) 5. TfL are conducting their own programme review of what NR are proposing to get the work to completion. This review is ongoing and results will only reach Cttee members just before next week's meeting. 6. Once the Cttee have taken a view on the review findings TfL will then seek a way forward with the DfT and NR. 7. Cost overrun risk is between NR and DfT. TfL's exposure is capped at the £25m contribution. 8. No indicative date for the start of electric services but there is a sense in the paper that TfL are expecting a delay. |
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Post by alpinejohn on Jul 18, 2017 7:33:41 GMT
Whilst the "NR mess" view may indeed be justified - it raises a heap of consequential questions for users and does not absolve TFL from reworking their roll-out plan to reflect the new reality - this project is going to over-run and probably by many months if not years.
The current "TFL Planned Works Calendar" only shows a single GOBLIN closure this weekend with nothing else planned during the remaining weeks covered by the calendar(to mid October). This seems rather worrying. A trip down the line shows there is still masses of OHLE (Over Head Line Equipment)infrastructure missing/to go in, be suitably knitted together, tested, signed off and energised before any of the new electric trains can be brought into use to begin operator re-training over the route.
The only good news for GOBLIN was a report in one of the rail magazines that NR had somehow secured a waiver which means for now the limited clearance bridge will not need to be raised and the OHLE can indeed be safely threaded under the current bridge.
It will be interesting to see whether come Monday, the route is lined end to end by a forest of brand new OHLE masts ready for the knitting train to appear a week or two latter to install all the missing cabling and get the project back on target. Somehow I doubt it.
Sadly NR are getting so much grief about the delayed Great Western Mainline electrification project that it has now become their prime focus for staff and resources - and with diesels now operating again on GOBLIN, I suspect it has slipped towards the back of NR's priorities.
So do we know whether the current depots are physically capable of supporting operations of the existing fleet and storing an incoming tide of brand new and presumably much longer EMU units? Or will they be heading straight into temporary storage somewhere?
Does anyone know whether manufacture of the new EMUs is on time?
If the line is not ready is there scope for the new units to be temporarily redeployed? - It seems a waste to have brand new kit sitting idle especially as the manufacturer will presumably want to be paid on delivery - even if TFL have not got a line to use them on.
Once the OHLE is complete on the line, roughly how long will the staff retraining phase take, before GOBLIN can begin using the new EMUs in public service? I guess TFL will choose a soft launch for the new EMUs as most new kit seems to take a good few months to bed in, and for any teething problems to emerge and be fixed.
Interesting times ahead.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jul 18, 2017 9:06:14 GMT
If the line is not ready is there scope for the new units to be temporarily redeployed? -. I assume so, since the units will also be used on the Wat-Eus line. An ac-only variant (with different seating arrangements - think of S7 vs S8) will also be used on the Enfield, Chingford and Emerson Park lines. Provided there are no issues with clearances for the shoegear, they could be used there as well. And if the Goblin isn't ready, the schedule could be shuffled to build its units last. |
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Post by snoggle on Jul 18, 2017 12:00:01 GMT
Whilst the "NR mess" view may indeed be justified - it raises a heap of consequential questions for users and does not absolve TFL from reworking their roll-out plan to reflect the new reality - this project is going to over-run and probably by many months if not years. The current "TFL Planned Works Calendar" only shows a single GOBLIN closure this weekend with nothing else planned during the remaining weeks covered by the calendar(to mid October). This seems rather worrying. A trip down the line shows there is still masses of OHLE (Over Head Line Equipment)infrastructure missing/to go in, be suitably knitted together, tested, signed off and energised before any of the new electric trains can be brought into use to begin operator re-training over the route. The only good news for GOBLIN was a report in one of the rail magazines that NR had somehow secured a waiver which means for now the limited clearance bridge will not need to be raised and the OHLE can indeed be safely threaded under the current bridge. So do we know whether the current depots are physically capable of supporting operations of the existing fleet and storing an incoming tide of brand new and presumably much longer EMU units? Or will they be heading straight into temporary storage somewhere? Does anyone know whether manufacture of the new EMUs is on time? If the line is not ready is there scope for the new units to be temporarily redeployed? - It seems a waste to have brand new kit sitting idle especially as the manufacturer will presumably want to be paid on delivery - even if TFL have not got a line to use them on. Once the OHLE is complete on the line, roughly how long will the staff retraining phase take, before GOBLIN can begin using the new EMUs in public service? I guess TFL will choose a soft launch for the new EMUs as most new kit seems to take a good few months to bed in, and for any teething problems to emerge and be fixed. Interesting times ahead. A few comments. The recent TfL paper was about giving senior managers a "position" to go back to NR with to try to reach agreement on how the work completes plus compensation issues. Although I expect negotiations have been underway for a fair while you can't really reach a conclusion with a Board level steer on such a public project. Goodness knows if it's a short step to an agreement or whether a whole load of stuff has been opened up again for debate. We will not see the closure list updated until there is an agreement which I expect will be formally announced given media interest. My hunch is that we have not seen info on Christmas and New Year closures because a possible GOBLIN blockade is not yet finalised and it may or may not interract with other plans. The other enormous risk is most possessions or blockades are subject to many months / years of planning in order to scope the work properly, secure the required (scarce) resource / plant etc. Trying to "rush" and reschedule the GOBLIN work creates a further risk that it all goes belly up a second time. That would be a massive failing. I would not want to be the project manager running this job - unless I was one of the best project managers in the world and they tend not to be deployed on small scale electrification jobs.  I may be proved wrong but I don't see the delay stretching to years. I think we are talking about months. That's still unacceptable but I don't see TfL or the Mayor allowing this one to run off into the distance without resolution. It makes them look bad and weak which is obviously not on the script. The issue will be brought to a resolution one way or the other. I've not seen any statements about whether the rolling stock is on time or not. The supply contract put GOBLIN stock first for delivery and use. What is unclear is whether preparatory work is needed on West Anglia for these trains to operate or not. If not then in theory the delivery schedule could be juggled with stock deployed elsewhere - assuming drivers can be released by Arriva for training and familiarisation. Sending trains to the Watford DC route and releasing 378s to the NLL/WLL/ELL service doesn't create too many issues. Obviously the delay to the GOBLIN works has, as you say, multiple knock on consequences for TfL, Bombardier and Arriva and all the contracts governing those relationships. The rolling stock supply contract had a long list of milestone dates for training release, test train runs etc. To my untrained amateur eyes the programme looked relatively tight but I assume Arriva, TfL and Bombardier felt it was achieveable. From memory it was a period of a few (6-7) months for all of the stages combined from getting drivers on training simulators to running test trains to then entry into passenger service. Obviously it's a rolling cycle as trains enter service, more get delivered, old trains removed from service etc. The initial stage from first training to first train in service was the 6-7 month period (note I've not gone back to verify this against the contract which is online). TfL always goes for a soft launch without too much hullabaloo other than a grinning Mayor and Commissioner having a first ride in front of the media. Everything else is kept fairly quiet. |
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