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36tph
Sept 14, 2015 11:25:39 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2015 11:25:39 GMT
Hi, Does anyone know if there will be any improvements to signalling to further shorten the RORI/platform-occupation times on the Victoria Line to allow for 36tph? Aside from Walthamstow crossover, will be there be any other infrastructure or signalling improvements to allow for 36tph? Thanks.
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36tph
Sept 14, 2015 17:44:45 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2015 17:44:45 GMT
Extra track circuits are needed for shortter headways and early backlock releases will also be needed Also the extra trains data needs updating ie mapping etc
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36tph
Sept 14, 2015 18:46:15 GMT
Post by londonstuff on Sept 14, 2015 18:46:15 GMT
Thanks for this. Could you explain (or Seaeagle perhaps), what backlock releases are?
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36tph
Sept 14, 2015 20:34:59 GMT
Post by jimini on Sept 14, 2015 20:34:59 GMT
Novice question here, but the RORI acronym - why isn't it RIRO? I would have thought that roll in roll out would be a measure of station occupancy dwell time, rather than the former. TIA all!
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36tph
Sept 14, 2015 23:35:24 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2015 23:35:24 GMT
Thanks for this. Could you explain (or Seaeagle perhaps), what backlock releases are?
In the old-old days, backlocking was a means of preventing certain points or signal levers being moved when a train was travelling over a crossover, preventing the points from moving under the train. Backlock release refers to the release of this to enable the points to be moved, e.g. for an incoming train after a departing train has left. Obviously, you desire a means of safely and reliably determining the precise moment when a train is completely clear of a crossover, enabling the points to be moved as soon as possible, enabling (in our case) an incoming train to be cleared into a platform as soon as possible. Old threadLURS articleNowadays, its obviously the same idea, but there aren't any proper, old-school signal levers on the Vic that I'm aware of.
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36tph
Sept 15, 2015 1:03:17 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 1:03:17 GMT
On a separate note, does the Vic still use track circuits as part of its day-to-day signalling system?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 10:46:10 GMT
Novice question here, but the RORI acronym - why isn't it RIRO? I would have thought that roll in roll out would be a measure of station occupancy dwell time, rather than the former. TIA all! The platform re-occupation time is the time taken for a train to depart (run out) and then the next train to arrive (run in) - this RORI instead of RIRO. Realistic capacity through a station is RORI + dwell time + operating margin. Extra track circuits are needed for shortter headways and early backlock releases will also be needed Also the extra trains data needs updating ie mapping etc Thanks for the information. I'd be interested to know what the new RORI/platform re-occupation times are expected to be? Is it theoretically possible for a crossover to be 'cleared' before a train has cleared the whole scissors crossover? E.g. if a train is leaving p1 at Brixton, and has cleared the fouling point of the facing crossover, then the route can be changed for the arriving train (instead of waiting until the departing train has cleared the whole scissors crossover).
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rincew1nd
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36tph
Sept 15, 2015 11:46:26 GMT
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 15, 2015 11:46:26 GMT
Novice question here, but the RORI acronym - why isn't it RIRO? I would have thought that roll in roll out would be a measure of station occupancy dwell time, rather than the former. TIA all! RIRO is dwell time - a measure of the efficiency of the station stop. RORI is the gap between the trains - a measure of the efficiency of the signalling and/or trains. Both measures contribute to the overall capacity of the line; more frequent trains mean fewer people per train, which means shorter dwell times, which mean trains can be more frequent. Unfortunately it's not quite that simple, but that's the gist of it!
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36tph
Sept 15, 2015 14:41:03 GMT
Post by seaeagle on Sept 15, 2015 14:41:03 GMT
Both measures contribute to the overall capacity of the line; more frequent trains mean fewer people per train, which means shorter dwell times, which mean trains can be more frequent. Unfortunately it's not quite that simple, but that's the gist of it! You make it sound so simple, can you wave your magic wand now to put it into practice! lol
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Post by superteacher on Sept 15, 2015 19:45:38 GMT
Both measures contribute to the overall capacity of the line; more frequent trains mean fewer people per train, which means shorter dwell times, which mean trains can be more frequent. Unfortunately it's not quite that simple, but that's the gist of it! You make it sound so simple, can you wave your magic wand now to put it into practice! lol Imagine the frequency you could run without passengers getting in the way!
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36tph
Sept 15, 2015 20:55:33 GMT
Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 20:55:33 GMT
On a separate note, does the Vic still use track circuits as part of its day-to-day signalling system? FS2550 JTC Track Circuits
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 15, 2015 22:42:09 GMT
Imagine the frequency you could run without passengers getting in the way! A similar sentiment is often expressed at my work, we would run a seamless, efficient, service if it wasn't for patients! (Yes, that is my tongue firmly in my cheek)
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Post by superteacher on Sept 16, 2015 18:08:18 GMT
Imagine the frequency you could run without passengers getting in the way! A similar sentiment is often expressed at my work, we would run a seamless, efficient, service if it wasn't for patients! (Yes, that is my tongue firmly in my cheek) I'd say the same for schools, although the adults usually are far more hassle than the children!
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36tph
Apr 1, 2016 12:32:19 GMT
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Post by ashlar on Apr 1, 2016 12:32:19 GMT
So... the 36 tph to Walthamstow was supposed to start in April 2016.
It is now April 2016. Any news?
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36tph
Apr 1, 2016 14:13:30 GMT
Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2016 14:13:30 GMT
Remains at 34tph from mid-May but end-to-end running. 90 mins per peak of 36tph in November 2016 - maybe.
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36tph
Apr 1, 2016 14:19:36 GMT
Post by superteacher on Apr 1, 2016 14:19:36 GMT
Remains at 34tph from mid-May but end-to-end running. 90 mins per peak of 36tph in November 2016 - maybe. I suspect they want to try out stepping back at both ends of the line with 34 tph to iron out any issues. Is this the first instance of a line emptoying stepping back in more than one location at the same time?
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36tph
Apr 1, 2016 14:45:19 GMT
Post by seaeagle on Apr 1, 2016 14:45:19 GMT
Remains at 34tph from mid-May but end-to-end running. 90 mins per peak of 36tph in November 2016 - maybe. I suspect they want to try out stepping back at both ends of the line with 34 tph to iron out any issues. Is this the first instance of a line emptoying stepping back in more than one location at the same time? Stepping back at Walthamstow has been going on for a fair while now during the peaks. With the new timetable in May the stepping back period is being extended and is going to be happening at weekends as well, also T/Op's will be picking up/getting off after/for meal reliefs for the first time.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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36tph
Apr 1, 2016 17:54:36 GMT
Post by North End on Apr 1, 2016 17:54:36 GMT
I suspect they want to try out stepping back at both ends of the line with 34 tph to iron out any issues. Is this the first instance of a line emptoying stepping back in more than one location at the same time? Stepping back at Walthamstow has been going on for a fair while now during the peaks. With the new timetable in May the stepping back period is being extended and is going to be happening at weekends as well, also T/Op's will be picking up/getting off after/for meal reliefs for the first time. Will the new timetable be end-to-end all the time, or will there still be Seven Sisters reversers during the off-peak?
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36tph
Apr 1, 2016 19:18:40 GMT
Post by seaeagle on Apr 1, 2016 19:18:40 GMT
Stepping back at Walthamstow has been going on for a fair while now during the peaks. With the new timetable in May the stepping back period is being extended and is going to be happening at weekends as well, also T/Op's will be picking up/getting off after/for meal reliefs for the first time. Will the new timetable be end-to-end all the time, or will there still be Seven Sisters reversers during the off-peak? There will still be the odd Seven Sisters reversing train/staff train, but far less than there is now.
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36tph
Apr 1, 2016 19:19:25 GMT
Post by greatkingrat on Apr 1, 2016 19:19:25 GMT
I suspect they will want to keep a few Seven Sisters terminators for staff access to the depot.
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36tph
Apr 1, 2016 19:25:08 GMT
Post by crusty54 on Apr 1, 2016 19:25:08 GMT
it was planned to run through to Walthamstow via the terminating platform at Seven Sisters on a frequent basis.
Has this been abandoned?
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36tph
Apr 8, 2016 15:43:10 GMT
Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 8, 2016 15:43:10 GMT
Will the new timetable be end-to-end all the time, or will there still be Seven Sisters reversers during the off-peak? Off-peak all trains will run through Brixton-Walthamstow. 27tph it was planned to run through to Walthamstow via the terminating platform at Seven Sisters on a frequent basis. Has this been abandoned? All Walthamstow trains will use pfm.3 There will still be the odd Seven Sisters reversing train/staff train, but far less than there is now. The staff runs, to/from depot and Seven Sisters pfm.4 will only operate every 30mins M-F, hourly at weekends. The new timetable is now shown in increments of 5 seconds, rather than ¼ ½ ¾ of a minute, as previously used: eg. the first NB departure from Brixton is at: 05 26 55.
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36tph
Apr 8, 2016 16:24:01 GMT
Post by stapler on Apr 8, 2016 16:24:01 GMT
Can someone define "stepping back" for me?!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2016 16:28:26 GMT
Can someone define "stepping back" for me?! Driver B drives the train into Walthamstow Central, gets out, presses the "rear cab clear" plunger and begins walking along the platform to the front of the train. Meanwhile, driver A, already on the platform, gets on the front of the train, checks that the rear cab clear visual is showing and that his colleague is not still on the train, gets ready and goes when the signal clears. Driver B arrives at the front of the platform. Driver C drives the next train into Walthamstow Central, gets out, presses the "rear cab clear" plunger and begins walking along the platform to the front of the train. Meanwhile, driver B gets on the front of the train, checks that the rear cab clear visual is showing and that his colleague is not still on the train, gets ready and goes when the signal clears. Driver C arrives at the front of the platform. Driver D drives the next train into Walthamstow Central, gets out, presses the "rear cab clear" plunger and begins walking along the platform to the front of the train. Repeat.
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36tph
Apr 8, 2016 16:33:03 GMT
Post by Dstock7080 on Apr 8, 2016 16:33:03 GMT
Can someone define "stepping back" for me?! Services on some Lines (Victoria, Piccadilly, Jubilee) are so frequent that it is not possible for the driver to bring a train to a stand at a terminal station and walk to the other end of the train in the time available, the train would be due to depart well before this. Stepping-back was introduced, so that the first driver relaxes, slightly!, before he makes his leisurely way to the other end of the platform, and picks up maybe the train behind, two trains behind, or even three trains behind the one he bought in.
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36tph
Apr 8, 2016 17:02:04 GMT
Post by John Tuthill on Apr 8, 2016 17:02:04 GMT
Can someone define "stepping back" for me?! Services on some Lines (Victoria, Piccadilly, Jubilee) are so frequent that it is not possible for the driver to bring a train to a stand at a terminal station and walk to the other end of the train in the time available, the train would be due to depart well before this. Stepping-back was introduced, so that the first driver relaxes, slightly!, before he makes his leisurely way to the other end of the platform, and picks up maybe the train behind, two trains behind, or even three trains behind the one he bought in. I don't know if it's still done, but I remember seeing this carried out on the Bakerloo at the E&C
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36tph
Apr 8, 2016 20:47:03 GMT
Post by stapler on Apr 8, 2016 20:47:03 GMT
Brilliant, thanks. Was there not a practice at one time called double-ending, where the incoming driver stayed at the front, became the guard, and the incoming guard drove the train from what was now the front? It was referred to in the Moorgate accident report anent the Northern City. May have been entirely unofficial.
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36tph
Apr 8, 2016 21:45:47 GMT
Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 8, 2016 21:45:47 GMT
I understand double ending was unofficial, but perfectly safe if the guard had qualified as a driver. The driver would, of course, have been a guard in the past. Most commonly done on shuttles, to avoid a lot of walking, (especially if it was raining), and helped to keep the guard's hand in while he waited for a driving vacancy to come up. It was, of course, entirely up to the driver whether he felt the guard was competent.
Stepping back has long been the practice on the Drain, especially in the mornings. It is not so much the length of the train that was the limiting factor, but having to swim against the tide of humanity going the other way to get to the other cab. Even going with the flow, you will see the train setting off back to Waterloo when you have only walked half the length of the train.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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36tph
Apr 8, 2016 23:19:15 GMT
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Post by North End on Apr 8, 2016 23:19:15 GMT
I understand double ending was unofficial, but perfectly safe if the guard had qualified as a driver. The driver would, of course, have been a guard in the past. Most commonly done on shuttles, to avoid a lot of walking, (especially if it was raining), and helped to keep the guard's hand in while he waited for a driving vacancy to come up. It was, of course, entirely up to the driver whether he felt the guard was competent. Stepping back has long been the practice on the Drain, especially in the mornings. It is not so much the length of the train that was the limiting factor, but having to swim against the tide of humanity going the other way to get to the other cab. Even going with the flow, you will see the train setting off back to Waterloo when you have only walked half the length of the train. Used to be quite common at East Finchley. If a driver doesn't show up for any reason one option is to detrain and reverse over 23 crossover, then shunt it round to platform 2 for its next trip. Normally the DMT would jump in the back cab to save time. Remember one Sunday it had to be done 3 times during an afternoon. Much less common nowadays, as many desk duty managers no longer have train licences.
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36tph
Apr 20, 2016 19:52:42 GMT
Post by goonerkeith on Apr 20, 2016 19:52:42 GMT
The new timetable is now shown in increments of 5 seconds, rather than ¼ ½ ¾ of a minute, as previously used: eg. the first NB departure from Brixton is at: 05 26 5 Yes, I noticed that looking at WTT 39. The obvious question is why? Is it to increase the pressure on station staff/train operators to keep the service on time?
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