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Post by Alight on Aug 20, 2015 16:33:48 GMT
The New Tube for London trains that will supercede the '73 stock will have inter-car gangways. Does this mean that it would be possible to have a quicker turnaround at Wood Green by allowing trains to run into the siding with passengers, as there would be no risk of anyone jumping out (á la the Liverpool Street siding disaster)?
The reason I ask is Mike Horne's 'Piccadilly Tube' book suggests that in order for the Piccadilly line to increase its frequency in conjunction with the upgraded rolling stock, turnaround on the eastbound needs to improve. He rules out Wood Green as a feasible option on the grounds that the current emptying procedure is impractical, however with fully walkthrough trains I see no reason why they can't contain passengers unless the train is going to be withdrawn from service for a substantial period of time.
I was on a Wood Green terminator the other week and I have to say for the first time ever I was very impressed by how quick the turnaround was; two CSAs were already waiting on the platform ready to close the doors, which obviated the need for the driver to leave his cab! On other occasions (I usually have a Wood Green terminator on average every couple of months) it is down to the driver to deal with the whole door-closing procedure alone, alas holding up the trains behind.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 20, 2015 17:00:40 GMT
An old idea for the Picc upgrade was to fit PEDs at Wood Green and with new trains with ATO and "auto turn round" (like DLR trains) the assumption was that you can get a high frequency without the queues and problems associated with Arnos Grove and Oakwood terminators / excessive mileage to bits of the network where there really isn't the demand. Journey Time Capability model parameters / values were developed to incentivise the provision of fast Wood Green turnrounds post upgrade.
Whether that concept has survived in current LU thinking I've no idea.
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 20, 2015 17:17:42 GMT
The New Tube for London trains that will supercede the '73 stock will have inter-car gangways. Does this mean that it would be possible to have a quicker turnaround at Wood Green by allowing trains to run into the siding with passengers, as there would be no risk of anyone jumping out (á la the Liverpool Street siding disaster)? The reason I ask is Mike Horne's 'Piccadilly Tube' book suggests that in order for the Piccadilly line to increase its frequency in conjunction with the upgraded rolling stock, turnaround on the eastbound needs to improve. He rules out Wood Green as a feasible option on the grounds that the current emptying procedure is impractical, however with fully walkthrough trains I see no reason why they can't contain passengers unless the train is going to be withdrawn from service for a substantial period of time. No thanks. Yes, you would be containing the passengers you've overcarried, but the risk of assault to a driver changing ends far outweighs that ability to contain people.
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Post by superteacher on Aug 20, 2015 19:42:05 GMT
A far better option would be an extra platform at Oakwood.
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Post by philthetube on Aug 20, 2015 19:47:13 GMT
A possible option would be to double end reversers
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Post by North End on Aug 20, 2015 20:29:45 GMT
A far better option would be an extra platform at Oakwood. Something will need to give at the east end of the line, if the Picc is to reliably operate more than its current frequency through town. The new crew depot at Cockfosters should help ease the blocking back through Arnos Grove that occurs during disruption, but to improve things beyond that some *serious* money will need to be spent.
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Post by superteacher on Aug 20, 2015 21:08:36 GMT
They could probably operate 30 tph with stepping back at Cockfosters.
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Post by rsdworker on Aug 20, 2015 21:34:16 GMT
well or simllar to auto siding operation at vienna metro which has automatic control for sidings so driver closes up train and steps out of cab and shuts cab door and walks over to small control panel on wall and inesrts key in and sends commands to train to do auto turnaround - train now driven by computer to siding and if driver wants recall the train back - so driver walks across to platform to other control panel and does key insert and calls train in - the train comes to driver postion - near key box and steps in and closes cab door and drives in manual mode
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Post by superteacher on Aug 20, 2015 21:52:06 GMT
well or simllar to auto siding operation at vienna metro which has automatic control for sidings so driver closes up train and steps out of cab and shuts cab door and walks over to small control panel on wall and inesrts key in and sends commands to train to do auto turnaround - train now driven by computer to siding and if driver wants recall the train back - so driver walks across to platform to other control panel and does key insert and calls train in - the train comes to driver postion - near key box and steps in and closes cab door and drives in manual mode Interesting that. It seems like a curious mix of old and new. However, if they can automate the move to and from the siding, why are they still using manual driving at other times? In any case, it still doesn't cure the problem of detrainung, and the resulting delay to the following train.
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 20, 2015 23:36:03 GMT
With respect of northbound trains being delayed, what would help would be if the approach to Arnos Grove was modified to prevent trains terminating there from delaying through trains.
This would, I suspect, require earthworks. Its a shame that a wider A406 bridge was not included in the road works specification, as the existing bridge might need to be replaced too.
Ideally the line would split somewhere. But with so much tunnel this would be expensive! Unless the split was at Wood Green and the siding was used as the sole connection (of the extended line) to the rest of the route. Whilst only a single track and no extra platforms would be less than ideal, it would reduce the costs quite considerably!
Simon
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Post by Alight on Aug 21, 2015 15:05:33 GMT
Funny you should mention that. Mike Horne's 'Piccadilly Tube' book contains a proposed plan of Wood Green station that includes a short stub adjoining the westbound marked as a possible extension towards Enfield.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2015 8:45:58 GMT
well or simllar to auto siding operation at vienna metro which has automatic control for sidings so driver closes up train and steps out of cab and shuts cab door and walks over to small control panel on wall and inesrts key in and sends commands to train to do auto turnaround - train now driven by computer to siding and if driver wants recall the train back - so driver walks across to platform to other control panel and does key insert and calls train in - the train comes to driver postion - near key box and steps in and closes cab door and drives in manual mode Fine for 24tph, but hopeless for 30tph+. The New Tube for London trains that will supercede the '73 stock will have inter-car gangways. Does this mean that it would be possible to have a quicker turnaround at Wood Green by allowing trains to run into the siding with passengers, as there would be no risk of anyone jumping out (á la the Liverpool Street siding disaster)? The reason I ask is Mike Horne's 'Piccadilly Tube' book suggests that in order for the Piccadilly line to increase its frequency in conjunction with the upgraded rolling stock, turnaround on the eastbound needs to improve. He rules out Wood Green as a feasible option on the grounds that the current emptying procedure is impractical, however with fully walkthrough trains I see no reason why they can't contain passengers unless the train is going to be withdrawn from service for a substantial period of time. No thanks. Yes, you would be containing the passengers you've overcarried, but the risk of assault to a driver changing ends far outweighs that ability to contain people. Not a problem with driverless trains.
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Post by rheostar on Aug 24, 2015 9:39:16 GMT
As the New Tube trains will be driverless there'll be very few occasions when reversing at Wood Green would be required.
With no drivers to worry about, Cockfosters could easily handle 30 tph
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Colin
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Post by Colin on Aug 24, 2015 10:48:55 GMT
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 24, 2015 13:49:03 GMT
. However, if they can automate the move to and from the siding, why are they still using manual driving at other times? I would guess that automatic operation over such a short distance is easier to arrange than over a whole line. Also, as the train is not in service it doesn't need staff on board whilst the manoeuvre is conducted. Reduces turnover time (or the need for stepping back).Note that even when stepping back, the drivers still have to walk the length of the platform.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 24, 2015 14:57:44 GMT
Given the way that LU operates today, I can see there being either unattended reversing in sidings OR no requirement to tip out prior to reversing in a siding but not both. i.e. LU (and/or the safety regulator) will want a staff member on the train at all times passengers are.
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 25, 2015 22:38:24 GMT
In the past I can recall seeing some very fast reverses at Tower Gateway DLR - almost as fast as a normal station stop - no doubt possible because the Train Captains (as they were called at the time) could stay at the same doorways.
Simon
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Dom K
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Post by Dom K on Aug 25, 2015 22:56:27 GMT
In the past I can recall seeing some very fast reverses at Tower Gateway DLR - almost as fast as a normal station stop - no doubt possible because the Train Captains (as they were called at the time) could stay at the same doorways. Simon I think it's hard to foresee the future of "Wood Green terminators" having similar ways of reversing like the example you give at Tower Gateway. With my mod hat on, I'm not sure what this has to do with the topic at hand. Can we discuss about Wood Green and what is possible there with current infrastructure. If the thread continues as it is, it will go to RIPAS
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 26, 2015 22:54:34 GMT
As the New Tube trains will be driverless there'll be very few occasions when reversing at Wood Green would be required. With no drivers to worry about, Cockfosters could easily handle 30 tph Sorry, my previous message would have been clearer had I made it as a reply to this message, as I was using Tower Gateway as an example of how much more quickly a train can change direction of travel when the train is computer driven and therefore there is no need for the driver to walk from one end of the train to the other end. Simon
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Post by class411 on Aug 27, 2015 8:41:00 GMT
What was the "Liverpool Street siding disaster"?
I can find no mention of it via googling or in the Wikipedia article on the station.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 27, 2015 9:14:35 GMT
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Post by rheostar on Aug 27, 2015 12:39:15 GMT
As the New Tube trains will be driverless there'll be very few occasions when reversing at Wood Green would be required. With no drivers to worry about, Cockfosters could easily handle 30 tph Sorry, my previous message would have been clearer had I made it as a reply to this message, as I was using Tower Gateway as an example of how much more quickly a train can change direction of travel when the train is computer driven and therefore there is no need for the driver to walk from one end of the train to the other end. Simon Totally agree with you. A couple of years ago I was using the metro system in Singapore. We were at a terminus station and watched a driverless train arrive then depart in the opposite direction in under 30 seconds.
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Post by rincew1nd on Aug 27, 2015 16:19:21 GMT
What was the "Liverpool Street siding disaster"? I can find no mention of it via googling or in the Wikipedia article on the station. Not a disaster, just an accident. AFAIK a passenger was carried into the reversing siding, then tried to alight between the cars. Unfortunately they were fatally injured. To prevent recurrence trains are now tipped out first.
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Post by Chris M on Aug 27, 2015 16:26:09 GMT
You can see this closer to home. If you stand towards the rear of the DLR departure platform at Bank you can see the trains exit the headshunt less than 30 seconds after entering it if the platform is clear - the limiting factor on time stationary seems to be the time it takes for the points to move and be proven. A turnaround at Bank involves tipping out, running into the heashunt, waiting for the points, running into the platform and loading. The one that takes the longest I think is tipping out.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 27, 2015 16:35:09 GMT
With stepping back, I have seen sub-minute turnrounds at Bank on The Drain - the train can be already moving off again before I've walked half its length. No need to check the train is empty there of course, as the train reverses in the platform.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2015 14:59:41 GMT
Interesting that. It seems like a curious mix of old and new. However, if they can automate the move to and from the siding, why are they still using manual driving at other times? They aren't! Manual driving is only used in exceptional cases (and once a week for training purposes).
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Post by superteacher on Dec 10, 2015 18:50:18 GMT
Interesting that. It seems like a curious mix of old and new. However, if they can automate the move to and from the siding, why are they still using manual driving at other times? They aren't! Manual driving is only used in exceptional cases (and once a week for training purposes). Are you referring to the Vienna metro?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2015 19:54:10 GMT
Are you referring to the Vienna metro? Yes, I am. I'm sorry if resuscitating inactive threads is frowned upon here, I didn't know.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2015 20:08:30 GMT
Are you referring to the Vienna metro? Yes, I am. I'm sorry if resuscitating inactive threads is frowned upon here, I didn't know. It isn't as such - and it's certainly preferable to leaving questions unanswered, inaccuracies uncorrected, etc. and to starting a new thread for no reason. But we do lock inactive threads after a while to prevent junk additions to long-since dried up conversations and to encourage the creation of new threads where that would be more appropriate. Threads can, however, be unlocked at the discretion of the moderation team if anybody has anything of real value to add and/or if the conversation is worth booting up again. If you are resurrecting an old conversation, though, it can sometimes be helpful to signpost (something like a quick "regarding the Vienna metro" at the start, can really help us orient ourselves )
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 22:44:15 GMT
. However, if they can automate the move to and from the siding, why are they still using manual driving at other times? I would guess that automatic operation over such a short distance is easier to arrange than over a whole line. Also, as the train is not in service it doesn't need staff on board whilst the manoeuvre is conducted. Reduces turnover time (or the need for stepping back).Note that even when stepping back, the drivers still have to walk the length of the platform. Does it enable the driver to have an off-train PNB, which they would be denied if they had to take the train in and out of the sidings?
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