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Post by Tubeboy on Aug 5, 2015 22:28:03 GMT
Feel free Sawb.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 6, 2015 10:13:26 GMT
The press is full of statistics about Tube workers Ts & Cs, but often don't make things clear what is normal for shift workers.
For example, a headline this morning says Tube Workers get 52 days annual leave. Reading further I discover that 43 is a more common allowance, but this is still rather more than my own allowance (32.5) which is considered generous for a 9 to 5 desk job. But of course, I also get 104 weekend days and eight Bank Holidays off as well, so I end up only working 220.5 days. As the Tube runs on bank holidays and weekends, I would guess annual leave arrangements have to take that into account - how does it actually work?
And this much shouted-about 200/shift "for a short transitional period", as the press release has it. How short - A year? A month? Less?
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Post by bananaman on Aug 6, 2015 10:33:19 GMT
I can't speak for all LU staff, but in my area every day is a working day. That includes Christmas Day and all other bank holidays.
And my annual leave allowance is considerably less than 43 days.
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Post by Tubeboy on Aug 6, 2015 10:35:38 GMT
Drivers get 43 days, station staff 52. The 52 days breaks down as 29 days leave, 8 days for bank holidays, as we work them all, the remaining 15 days is a result of us working 2.5 hours a week unpaid over the course of a year.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 6, 2015 11:04:57 GMT
Drivers get 43 days, station staff 52. The 52 days breaks down as 29 days leave, 8 days for bank holidays, as we work them all, the remaining 15 days is a result of us working 2.5 hours a week unpaid over the course of a year. Thankyou - and the drivers' 43 is again presumably inclusive of what my employers call "days off in lieu" if we have to work bank holidays?
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Post by Tubeboy on Aug 6, 2015 11:34:26 GMT
Yes.
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Post by philthetube on Aug 6, 2015 12:43:21 GMT
40 of the days holiday entitlement is allocated on a rota, is is quite possible to go a full year without any time off when the schools are on holiday, and these dates can be difficult to arrange exchanges for.
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Post by domh245 on Aug 6, 2015 20:47:07 GMT
A brilliant article from the telegraph hereAbsolutely hilarious. Some of the comments are just as bad! I counted at least 6 clichés, including gems such as: and
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
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Post by North End on Aug 6, 2015 22:02:30 GMT
A brilliant article from the telegraph hereAbsolutely hilarious. Some of the comments are just as bad! I counted at least 6 clichés, including gems such as: and I'm not aware of the unions insisting that driver vacancies are only advertised internally, indeed LU have certainly recruited 'off the street' in the past. What it generally accepted however is that when this did happen, many of the so-called 'direct recruit' drivers found the training difficult, and struggled once in the job. Even as little as 6 months in a stations position is enough to give people a decent idea of how the railway works, as well as testing whether individuals can cope with aspects of the job such as shifts.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2015 14:36:23 GMT
I appreciate this strike wasn't about money - I have considerable sympathy with staff work life balances up in the air. I wonder if management introduced negotiations about night tube late to try and prevent industrial action happening throughout the year up until the night tube and keep it to just the last couple of months. Who knows! It was disappointing (but not surprising) to hear the BBC refer to the strike simply as a 'dispute over night tube pay' during one of their '60 Round Up' segments. No more info or details, just that! Tube staff really can't win. A commuter was being interviewed on TV and when they put it to him the strike wasn't about money but ensuring decent customer service, the response was (along the lines of) "If tube staff really cared about customer service, they'd stop withdrawing the service to customers every couple of months." And I'm sure people have seen this circulating social media..
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Post by domh245 on Aug 7, 2015 14:38:36 GMT
I remember seeing a very good response to that table, from a doctor, but for the life of me, I can't find it
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2015 14:46:15 GMT
I noted that none of my friends who are doctors posted it!
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Colin
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My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,347
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Post by Colin on Aug 7, 2015 19:10:21 GMT
That table doesn't have a single true fact in it! For example, a headline this morning says Tube Workers get 52 days annual leave. Reading further I discover that 43 is a more common allowance, but this is still rather more than my own allowance (32.5) which is considered generous for a 9 to 5 desk job. But of course, I also get 104 weekend days and eight Bank Holidays off as well, so I end up only working 220.5 days. As the Tube runs on bank holidays and weekends, I would guess annual leave arrangements have to take that into account - how does it actually work? Drivers get 43 days and station staff get 52. Not sure what other grades like those in service control get. As you rightly say, our annual leave is made up of a basic entitlement plus bank holidays plus banked rest days. The banked rest days bit is where we work a few hours more than we're actually paid for but this all banked up into extra annual leave days. So for drivers, 365 days in a year minus 2 rest days each week equals 261.....minus 43 days annual leave equals 218 working days. That's just 2 less than you! And this much shouted-about 200/shift "for a short transitional period", as the press release has it. How short - A year? A month? Less? Up to one year, maximum, though could be shorter. Initially this was offered as a one off £2,000 payment, but if they end the transition period after 6 months the company would of course save money. EDIT: The only reason money is involved is our pay deal was due up for renegotiation. London Underground wanted night tube attached to the same negotiations, so its them that have created the muddled mess we're now in with the media.
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cso
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Post by cso on Aug 8, 2015 13:52:52 GMT
The only reason money is involved is our pay deal was due up for renegotiation. London Underground wanted night tube attached to the same negotiations, so its them that have created the muddled mess we're now in with the media. Presumably that works in their favour - "Joe Public" think the strike is about pay, and then criticise the tube drivers for earning so much and demanding such huge pay rises, rather than being about work/life balance etc. meaning that the unions look like the bad guys in the strike?
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Colin
Advisor
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Post by Colin on Aug 8, 2015 16:06:37 GMT
Exactly!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 14:07:42 GMT
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Post by Tubeboy on Aug 11, 2015 19:09:01 GMT
I'm in the RMT and totally support the strikes for the reasons I put earlier in this thread. Rumours, true or not is that ASLEF are closer to a deal than the other unions. Of course that's typical of LU with their divide and rule tactics. ASLEF might not represent station staff, but if I were a train op and in ASLEF I'd be very concerned of the plan to remove 838 station posts. That's 838 less qualified staff to help a driver when dealing with a passenger alarm, stalled train, customer incident etc.
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Post by linus on Aug 11, 2015 20:03:50 GMT
Excellent, keep up the good work sisters! I'm loving my travels on RTs and RMs, the photo ops, the banter with strangers. Keep them going as long as you can. No one really suffers hardship, they're all making it up for effect. And we all feel your suffering for the shift work and low pay.
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Post by phil on Aug 12, 2015 19:23:05 GMT
I'm in the RMT and totally support the strikes for the reasons I put earlier in this thread. Rumours, true or not is that ASLEF are closer to a deal than the other unions. Of course that's typical of LU with their divide and rule tactics. ASLEF might not represent station staff, but if I were a train op and in ASLEF I'd be very concerned of the plan to remove 838 station posts. That's 838 less qualified staff to help a driver when dealing with a passenger alarm, stalled train, customer incident etc. I draw your attention to DOO. The drivers union did not cause to much of a fuss when guards went on the Overground - and provided they are suitably rewarded I doubt they will cause to much of a problem with DOO / DCO as required by the latest Northern franchise being put out to tender at the moment. As such, it makes perfect sense to try and come to a deal with ASLEF if they are amiable to it and remove them from the equation. Divide and rule it might be - but the National Rail system has been working that way for 20 years now and I don't see why LU should be any different.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Aug 12, 2015 19:46:34 GMT
I'm in the RMT and totally support the strikes for the reasons I put earlier in this thread. Rumours, true or not is that ASLEF are closer to a deal than the other unions. Of course that's typical of LU with their divide and rule tactics. ASLEF might not represent station staff, but if I were a train op and in ASLEF I'd be very concerned of the plan to remove 838 station posts. That's 838 less qualified staff to help a driver when dealing with a passenger alarm, stalled train, customer incident etc. I draw your attention to DOO. The drivers union did not cause to much of a fuss when guards went on the Overground - and provided they are suitably rewarded I doubt they will cause to much of a problem with DOO / DCO as required by the latest Northern franchise being put out to tender at the moment. As such, it makes perfect sense to try and come to a deal with ASLEF if they are amiable to it and remove them from the equation. Divide and rule it might be - but the National Rail system has been working that way for 20 years now and I don't see why LU should be any different. I'm not keen on the way, on the mainline, the driving grade has become aloof to other grades. It's true that drivers carry a heavy safety responsibility, but other grades do too, right down to platform dispatch staff. Fortunately LUL hasn't really gone the same way, largely I think due to the fact that station staff are still fully trained in operational procedures - unlike the mainline where sadly station staff are now largely either dispatch, gateline or booking office. This is partly why disruption on the mainline is often handled badly as many staff simply aren't trained in how the railway works. I hope LU doesn't follow this unsatisfactory state of affairs. It's in the railway's best interest for all grades to work well together, and for everyone to know and respect each other's job. Sadly I'm getting the impression LU may eventually go down the same road. As an example of why we should resist this path, in the last couple of years I've seen a noticeable increase in station staff reporting train staff for alleged wrongdoing. I've no problem with this if there is a safety issue which needs to be addressed, but the issues I've dealt with have not been safety related, and upon investigation have generally been found to be unfounded, basically the result of the complainant not understanding the train staff's responsibilities. I can also think of examples where the same has happened the other way round. As a company we could do without this unpleasantness, all grades should stick together.
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Post by domh245 on Aug 12, 2015 19:57:04 GMT
I wonder if potentially, the fact that not all T/Ops are ASLEF members has got something to do with it, something that is supposedly more noticeable on lines which went over to DOO recently (Northern line springing to mind). As a side note, ASLEF have said that they are opposed to further roll outs of DOO on the mainline, although, I'm sure if enough money is banded about, minds might be changed!
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Post by Red Dragon on Aug 24, 2015 16:36:42 GMT
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Post by rsdworker on Aug 24, 2015 17:27:34 GMT
now 3 unions has supsended strikes
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