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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 6, 2015 18:15:12 GMT
I didn't make myself as clear as I would have wished - there were very few main lines built for the purposes of competition. In some cases, as you state,companies did exploit the network that had already been built for other reasons as the basis for competition. . Private enterprise hates competition: without it they can keep prices up and standards down. Many lines were built (or acquired) in order to keep potential competitors out, or at least preserve market share - the Portsmouth Direct, the St Helier line, the Romford - Upminster (an LTS line, built to prevent a sally by the GER towards the Thames) - no less than three lines to Dartford, all built by the same company. Where there was a duopoly (Kent, for example) we saw much duplicatoin and little integration - if interchange were easier at Canterbury or Maidstone for example, many journeys would be easier and shorter - even if one company would gain from a particular new "journey opprtunity", it would lose on others, and overall both companies saw a potential loss of revenue. (This was in the 19th century, when rail was the only practical form of transport over any distance and so it was a true duopoly. |
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Post by grahamhewett on Jan 6, 2015 18:21:34 GMT
@env123 - very few places even in the conurbation have the luxury of two train services to town (depending on how far your are prepared to walk); outside the conurbation, only a handful - Watford. Windsor, Southend, Cambridge. some towns in Kent (again depending on how far you would walk) and that's about it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 18:56:46 GMT
@env123 - very few places even in the conurbation have the luxury of two train services to town (depending on how far your are prepared to walk); outside the conurbation, only a handful - Watford. Windsor, Southend, Cambridge. some towns in Kent (again depending on how far you would walk) and that's about it. Then, I'm lucky to live in North London  I think Potters Bar, WGC and Hatfield will likely have both GN and Thameslink services in 2018, not sure about the GN locals yet. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 6, 2015 20:42:50 GMT
@env123 - very few places even in the conurbation have the luxury of two train services to town (depending on how far your are prepared to walk); outside the conurbation, only a handful - Watford. Windsor, Southend, Cambridge. some towns in Kent (again depending on how far you would walk) and that's about it. Birmingham, Reading, Exeter, Portsmouth, Hastings, Epsom, Leatherhead, Dorking, Hull, Wakefield, stretch a point and add St Albans, and Bedford - even Lincoln (50% of its direct services are run by EMT!) Oxford will be added to this select group later this year. I think Potters Bar, WGC and Hatfield will likely have both GN and Thameslink services in 2018, not sure about the GN locals yet. Thameslink and GN have had the same operator since FCC took on the franchise in 2006. |
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Post by domh245 on Jan 6, 2015 20:51:55 GMT
I think he might be referring to the fact that there will be services both to kings cross and blackfriars, which will (to the passenger at least) be operated by 2 different operators.
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Post by grahamhewett on Jan 6, 2015 21:15:11 GMT
norbitonflyer - I really had in mind only the commuter services, since that was what I thought envy123 was on about; I didn't list those singleton stations which have more than operator simply because the exam question as set was about multiple physical routes,not multiple operators. BTW the list of places with multiple operators from London is even longer - Bath and Bristol for a start (and up to 2008,all stations to Carmarthen) but none of these is commuter territory and none is the product of competing infrastructure.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 6, 2015 21:36:14 GMT
norbitonflyer - I really had in mind only the commuter services, because the exam question as set was about multiple physical routes,. Well, the majority of those are in Network South east territory and have different routes - certainly , Oxford and Reading count if Cambridge does, as well as Hertford, St Albans (via Watford), and Epsom - Bedford via Bletchley is probably stretching a point. And didn't envy actually say " outside the conurbation", which is why I refrained from mentioning Enfield |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2015 21:42:03 GMT
I note that Abbey Wood in South East London will have two competing services available, when Crossrail opens, with Southeastern into London Bridge, and the SE branch of Crossrail too.
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Post by grahamhewett on Jan 6, 2015 22:02:10 GMT
norbitonflyer - it's difficult to believe that many commute from S Albans to London via watford. I looked for the "beyond the conurbation" referencein envy123's posts but couldn't find it; perhaps you had better luck!
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 6, 2015 22:18:13 GMT
- ...................... outside the conurbation, only a handful - Watford. Windsor, Southend, Cambridge. some towns in Kent...... and that's about it. Mea culpa - I remembered the quote but misread the attribution. |
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Post by grahamhewett on Jan 6, 2015 22:36:31 GMT
I'm not sure, in the end, that we can help envy123 find a suitable commutable village of the likes of Welham Green, but with competing infrastructure other than those we have collectively suggested (which are mostly towns or suburbs). Edenbridge? (But hardly a stirring choice of options!)
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Post by metrailway on Jan 6, 2015 23:22:31 GMT
I am going very far from the conurbation and probably a long commute but one village example within the ex-NSE area is Kings Sutton where you can catch trains via Oxford to Paddington or via High Wycombe to Marylebone.
Arguably with the vast majority of village commuters possessing a car, most now have a choice of which railway they could use to head into London.
You certainly see it in the villages around Aylesbury where many drive further out, usually to Tring or Haddenham, instead of going to their closest station(s) on the former Metropolitan Railway.
Vice versa, you see many drive down to Amersham (or Epping if you are in Essex) to take advantage of the cheaper LU fares.
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Post by melikepie on Jan 7, 2015 1:11:59 GMT
I think he might be referring to the fact that there will be services both to kings cross and blackfriars, which will (to the passenger at least) be operated by 2 different operators. Pretty sure they are run by the same train company with posters to show To also add to the above, Hertford, Wigan, Warrington and loads others. There is not a handful. Does the proposed Baker loo extension throw a spanner in the works? |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jan 7, 2015 8:00:58 GMT
To also add to the above, Hertford, Wigan, Warrington and loads others. Wigan and Warrington each have two stations, but in each case only one of them has a service to London. (Although both Warrington stations have services to Manchester) EDIT Just realised that both Warrington stations also have direct services to Liverpool, and now that the Manchester-Edinburgh service has been diverted to take advantage of the elctrification of the Manchester-Earlestown line, both Wigan stations also have services to Manchester. (but Wigan Wallgate to Liverpool requires a change from diesel to electric at Kirkby) |
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Post by grahamhewett on Jan 7, 2015 9:25:13 GMT
-- but commuting to London from either is not a very attractive thought...!
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Post by domh245 on Jan 7, 2015 10:06:09 GMT
I think he might be referring to the fact that there will be services both to kings cross and blackfriars, which will (to the passenger at least) be operated by 2 different operators. Pretty sure they are run by the same train company with posters to show They are operated by the same TOC, but there are distinct brands within it. Indeed even the Network Rail reporting systems see it as 4 different TOCs, which is what I was trying to point out. For example when a train is announced it isn't the "Thameslink great northern" service, its the "Thameslink" service or "great northern" service, depending on where you are |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2015 11:28:05 GMT
In terms of Potters Bar and others having more than one route into Central London in the future, I mean that there would be Thameslink and GN trains and direct services to the core and Moorgate.
I also give the middle finger to TFL's Journey Planner sometimes, as I sometimes use Totteridge to go directly to London Bridge and Bank and have an easier interchange with the DLR if I'm going to Custom House. I specifically avoid King's X at rush hour, unless it's really needed. Though, Totteridge is a bit further away from my house than Arnos Grove.
And my colleague drives from Elstree to the commuter park in Edgware and takes the tube direct to work, instead of going via Thameslink.
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Post by metman on Jan 15, 2015 22:20:47 GMT
Returning to an earlier comment, Edgware/Stanmore is an interesting place for railways. Edgware was first served by the GN and only received the LER in about 1924. Stanmore was served by a brachline from Harrow (and Wealdstone). Interestingly the Met only built to Stanmore to tap into some of the development Edgware had created and indeed Canons Park had (Edgware) in brackets when first opened. The same was true of Watford Met which was pushed by the LNER to try and muscle in on the LNWR patch!
The GN Edgware branch was supposed to be absorbed into the Northern Heights project (the station wasn't) but the War put an end to this and ultimately the former LNWR and GN branches didn't make the cut leaving just the LU lines in place.
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