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Post by d7666 on Feb 16, 2023 15:27:18 GMT
I would challenge "simpler to retain".
Certainly not simpler to maintain.
It is not all about traction efficiency and regen braking.
DC motors and camshafts are obsolete. Both are a very rare commodity to have any work done on them. DC motors on main line units like 313s 319s 321 etc for at least the past 10 years if not more have all been overhauled by a specialist outfit in Eire. Camshafts are near impossible _ a lot used to be done at Chart Leacon when it was CM&EE workshops but that closed ~2 decades ago now. That is one of the reasons behind retractioning. The supply of parts to sustain the existing kit is non existent ***
That there are only 5 484s and oodles of dead D78s dumped at Long Marston to cannibalise is irrelevant; the kit still needs overhauling. And then maintaining. No idea what the life expectancy of a 484 is, but it must be 10 years if not 20 or 30. In 2033 parts and expertise - for just 5 units - are further diminished. Never mind 2043 or 2053.
Also, usable traffic units is increased and down time reduced with AC kit. It is hard to put this into meaningful stats for a small bespoke fleet like IOW, but a main line fleets of DC motor camshaft units is hard to push above 90% utilisation, whereas an a VVVF AC fleet can do 95/96% easily and can be higher. Exam duration is shorter, and exam periodicity longer.
Note I said utilisation - not availabilty not reliability. Utilisation is the ability (and confidence) to diagram that proportion of a fleet to use. 360s for example, when they were still with GE/GA, were diagrammed at one time for 20 of 21 in use and it was not uncommon for the 21st to be out too. Never possible to use 321s like that, and they don't even have camshafts, just DC motors.
OK, you don't really need more than 80% on IOW, but there are still significant savings in exam time and exam periodicity.
*** and the human skills for REW to keep 72 & 73 stock requires specialist knowledge distorting costs; rather like in the signalling world locking fitters for mechanical interlockings are a scarce resource
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Post by ted672 on Feb 16, 2023 17:37:05 GMT
It's encouraging to learn that GWR has taken up the challenge. The potential of reusing sound bodyshells and recently overhauled bogies was huge at the time Vivarail was set up and it would be a great shame if all their work was wasted. Ok, the Marston Vale units have their problems, but these are not insurmountable and once resolved, there could still be plenty of opportunities for further unit conversions.
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Post by d7666 on Feb 16, 2023 18:03:12 GMT
GWR has not taken up the challenge. Or any challenge. news.gwr.com/news/fast-charging-battery-trial-to-resume-after-gwr-agrees-deal-to-purchase-vivarail-assetsis GWR publicity flannel. It is a DfT project - always has been - GWR were simply a DfT client - and now GWR (and whoever else needs to be involved) are now paid to carry on by DfT. GWR have more or less been instructed by DfT and the GWR "purchase of assets" is actually paid for by DfT. The unit(s) will now be maintained at Reading. By GWR. Paid for by DfT. Also. As reported on WNXX. The fast charging kit for the trials to actually start is still impounded in Spain by customs. I'm sure it will be people from DfT sorting that out. Not GWR. Mod edit [goldenarrow]: Quote removed. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Feb 16, 2023 20:01:41 GMT
The TfW units have been out on test this week too:
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Post by d7666 on Feb 19, 2023 0:27:47 GMT
There is some interesting chatter on WNXX forum about what is involved with actually working 230s in the Greenfords if / when they start; not going to type the while lot but interesting points : QUOTE As the first and last trips start/finish at Paddington, we have to use a Turbo on those services before swapping out/in for the class 230.... UNQUOTE QUOTe The idea is to have the unit receive light maintenance at West Ealing and then the heavier stuff at Reading over the weekend, however the class 230 will arrive at West Ealing before the Hex units and therefore will be at the wrong end of the siding to be charged! uNQUOTE I guess that means the 230 is SX only then. I'm not even going to start debating shunting around West Ealing.  |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Feb 19, 2023 11:03:34 GMT
If I'm not mistaken one of the reasons the first and last trains start and finish at Paddington is that it's a positioning move for the stock to and from Reading each night. If the class 230 were to start from and stable at West Ealing it might no longer be necessary to run to/from Paddington - and the HEx issue might not be a real issue if the 230 were to stable in the bay.
I don't know the personalities behind the posts on WNXX, but it does sound like a case of 'not invented here' and people trying to find problems rather than solutions...
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Post by melikepie on Feb 19, 2023 11:33:41 GMT
If GWR and TfW have bought their 230s, why can't London Northwestern and continue the Marston Vale trains?
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Post by alpinejohn on Feb 19, 2023 11:54:02 GMT
At present the "fast charging kit has not been installed. Doubtless all plans thus far have looked at the easiest/cheapest place to locate the kit somewhere along the bay platform. However that platform is plenty long enough for 4 x 230s so if there really is a need for an occasional HEX service to utilise the bay then provided the charging kit is located at the buffer stop end of the platform there may be ample room to stable the 230 and for the HEX to enter slowly and occupy the remaining length of platform. OK this means affected HEX drivers would need retraining in addition to the Greenford shuttle staff.
But I agree that devising an approach capable of allowing the occasional use of the bay platform by HEX does not seem insurmountable always assuming people are willing to step away from a "can't" "won't" "shan't" attitude.
Then there is always the alternative whereby the fast charging kit could be located in Greenford - where there is a recently upgraded National grid to DC 700v substation nearby - which should have ample spare capacity to supply the fast charging kit assuming they also install a shore based battery pack to feed the fast charging demand. The shore battery pack would continuously bleed power slowly from the DC supply and then (just like a supersized mobile phone power pack) the battery pack would be drawn down rapidly as and when the fast charging kit is automatically engaged by the arrival of the Class 230.
I have often wondered whether it would also be possible to safely park a unit overnight on the central platform at Greenford given that it is effectively landlocked. With platforms on both sides it should even allow units to be given a quick litter clean through whilst the unit is being re-charged and the driver changes ends to get ready for the next departure time.
Moving the operational base and charging activity to Greenford might also resolve any issues with the HEX.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Feb 19, 2023 15:19:15 GMT
There's no clash with HEx and a Class 230 in the bay at West Ealing; the bay is unelectrified, and the only route to/from is to the unelectrified Greenford branch.
Putting the fast charging kit and/or stabing at Greenford is more complicated due to there being a platform face on both sides, therefore there's no access to the side of the train unlike at West Ealing. What's more, the bay platform road is landlocked by LU lines and there is very little access other than coming up the incline from the level of the other NR lines, which doesn't lend itself to even the most minor of maintenance tasks.
That said, there is plenty of spare railway beyond Greenford towards Perivale that isn't doing very much these days...
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Feb 19, 2023 15:21:00 GMT
rather like in the signalling world locking fitters for mechanical interlockings are a scarce resource [Off topic] I'm guessing you don't know many of LU's locking fitters. After a couple of recent recruitment campaigns there are several around my age which should suffice to see out the last of the mechanical frames. [/Off topic] |
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Post by 100andthirty on Feb 19, 2023 18:26:04 GMT
Fingers crossed!
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Post by d7666 on Feb 19, 2023 19:22:40 GMT
locking fitters .... scarce resource [Off topic] I'm guessing you don't know many of LU's locking fitters. After a couple of recent recruitment campaigns there are several around my age which should suffice to see out the last of the mechanical frames. [/Off topic] Don't know any at all !! I was going on what I had read in some report a while back. Mind you it was a pro CBTC report - perhaps had its own agenda. Or was maybe pre recruitment campaign. |
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Post by d7666 on Feb 19, 2023 19:25:40 GMT
There's no clash with HEx and a Class 230 in the bay at West Ealing; As I understood the WNXX thread, that I did not type out in full, not passenger track or bay being referred to. But stabling sdgs. HEX 387s work off West Ealing stabling sdgs. The 230 would go to berth (which is where it needs to go to out of service for cleaning etc) before any HEX arrives they run later. Hence 387 on top of 230 without a pre-set shunting plan. I don't know the personalities behind the posts on WNXX, but it does sound like a case of 'not invented here' and people trying to find problems rather than solutions... In this specific case the WNXX poster is a reliable authoritative source involved with rolling stock operating in that area of GW. I would not have relayed the gen otherwise. Wibble from other posters surrounding it ignored. Posts combined - Tom |
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Post by d7666 on Feb 19, 2023 19:34:48 GMT
If GWR and TfW have bought their 230s, why can't London Northwestern and continue the Marston Vale trains? As has already been posted, GW have not bought anything, the DfT have. The GW media release is fluff. Don't know about TfW but TOC TfW is the "Welsh DfT" so maybe that's how. LMWR is a different commercial set up, even though the whole lot are directed by DfT anyway. As already been posted, would you buy 3 units when you know they are exchanging engines at the rate of 3 per week ? Especially as the railway seems to have now found some 150s from ooop norff. The 230 fleets are also different modes - the LMWR ones are diesel only; the TfW ones are hybrid diesel/battery the DfT/GW one battery. If one wishes to trial alternative power options, the latter two are the one to persist with, not the diesel only version. |
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Post by Chris L on Feb 19, 2023 21:18:55 GMT
There's no clash with HEx and a Class 230 in the bay at West Ealing; As I understood the WNXX thread, that I did not type out in full, not passenger track or bay being referred to. But stabling sdgs. HEX 387s work off West Ealing stabling sdgs. The 230 would go to berth (which is where it needs to go to out of service for cleaning etc) before any HEX arrives they run later. Hence 387 on top of 230 without a pre-set shunting plan. Aren't the stabling sidings used by the 387s to the west of the station? |
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Feb 19, 2023 21:39:59 GMT
There's no clash with HEx and a Class 230 in the bay at West Ealing; As I understood the WNXX thread, that I did not type out in full, not passenger track or bay being referred to. But stabling sdgs. Quite, and I got that, but I was clarifying it for alpinejohn who seemed confused. Aren't the stabling sidings used by the 387s to the west of the station? Yes - adjacent to the Plasser Works between West Ealing and Hanwell. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Feb 20, 2023 18:45:17 GMT
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Post by melikepie on Apr 3, 2023 18:03:41 GMT
Here's a video of a Class 230 on the Borderlands Line (Wrexham to Bidston).
This does bring an interesting question if the 230s have clearance for the line to Birkenhead and Liverpool Underground both in terms of shape and permission.
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 3, 2023 20:23:48 GMT
Oh, its finally happened, I was concerned that with Vivarail's collapse this project might fall by the wayside.
Happily my concerns were unfounded!
Hopefully the hybrid drive system will prove to be more reliable than the system on the Marston Vale route.
Maybe one days these trains will be allowed to travel into Liverpool, perhaps even in third rail mode. Who knows?
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 4, 2023 21:39:33 GMT
Do these trains still have 3rd rail pick ups? I wonder what modifications would be required considering all the old kit got removed?
Either way it’s great to see them running in revenue service.
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Post by spsmiler on Apr 5, 2023 22:21:53 GMT
I'll be surprised if they retain third rail shoes
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Post by melikepie on Apr 8, 2023 16:30:06 GMT
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Post by anthony262 on Apr 13, 2023 21:39:38 GMT
Been some issues. With units struggling to keep to time. Doors seem.to be slower now than when.they were used on lul.
230010 been the main unit used although 230008 was the one used today. Drivers been told to make sure they set the units up correctly as the brake issues last week on 010 was due to someone not holding a button correctly when setting unit up.
Staff still getting used to them and timings on the Wrexham to Bidston line are terrible so much even 150s struggle with timekeeping.
TFW hoping to get a 2nd unit next week in public service with a 3rd unit being thunderbird.
RTT still showing a 2 hourly service next week. 230008 has really struggled today with timekeeping however 230010 didn't do too bad yesterday even managed to claw back some time.
Just waiting for Geoff to come visit the line
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Post by brigham on Apr 14, 2023 7:35:17 GMT
Doors seem.to be slower now than when.they were used on lul Which was slow enough even then, as I remember. |
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Post by anthony262 on Apr 14, 2023 9:30:48 GMT
Guards still gettingbused to them. One problem seems to be the layout of the guards control panels at each of the doors. Some are different to others even on the same unit. We got door release buttons on the left side on some panels but they are on the right in another panel.
Some drivers seem.to still be wary with these units other drivers who more used to them seem to better and more confident to use the full powers thats available.
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Post by anthony262 on Apr 14, 2023 9:31:33 GMT
Doors seem.to be slower now than when.they were used on lul Which was slow enough even then, as I remember. Opening the doors are pretty much the same as on LUL just closing they seem to be slower |
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Post by metroland on Apr 20, 2023 18:14:21 GMT
I wasn't sure if these are Vivarail conversions so created its own thread
these are VivaRail conversions, their progress to the USA is in this thread
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Post by alpinejohn on Apr 25, 2023 6:46:29 GMT
Which was slow enough even then, as I remember. Opening the doors are pretty much the same as on LUL just closing they seem to be slower The doors on the Class 230 units were modified (slowed down) so they comply with PRM/TSI accessibility regulations. Yes there might still be scope to marginally speed things up (only milliseconds) but like it or not without a formal exemption ALL future mainline trains will have doors opening pretty much as slow. LUL rolling stock is covered by different RVAR regulations. Guide dogs have been trained to expect that before any doors open there will be an audible alert beside the relevant door for 3 seconds. This helps the dog to lead the owner towards doors on the correct side of the train or help them move clear of any boarding or alighting passengers. Whilst LUL have obtained a fleet wide exemption from the RVAR rules, mainline stock like the 230s are stuck with it if they cannot demonstrate clear safety reasons to obtain an exemption. Many early comments on the TfW 230 units entering service in Wales, Marston Vale and the Island Line seem to mention the slow doors. However it seems once crews get used to the units the guards are becoming more adept at checking platform positioning and triggering the door release quickly and minimise the resulting platform dwell time. |
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Post by anthony262 on Apr 26, 2023 9:05:43 GMT
This has been brought up by users today. 230010 seems to have settled down and keeping to the timetable reasonably well.
Staff have gotten more used to them
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Post by anthony262 on Jun 3, 2023 20:13:43 GMT
TFW going g to be swapping units on the Wrexham to Bidston line half way through the day due to a problem with pollen clogging the generators.
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