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Post by greatkingrat on May 11, 2015 23:09:37 GMT
The Victoria line car diagrams are a good example of the problem with the Overground branding. There are five different Overground interchanges shown which between them can reach almost every Overground station, however there is no clue as to which interchange serves which line.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 12, 2015 9:24:28 GMT
There are five different Overground interchanges shown which between them can reach almost every Overground station,. Almost - the only exceptions being Romford, Emerson Park and Upminster.
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Post by bicbasher on May 12, 2015 15:29:03 GMT
IIRC of those three only 7 day travelcards are issued on Oyster. I won't be surprised if paper 7 day Travelcards continue to be issued at the AGA stations post May 31st until Oyster is enabled at the ticket office, although the franchise agreement with AGA states. If I've read this correctly, AGA have to provide Oyster at their remaining managed stations within the travelcard zones by the end of the month, which leaves LOROL/MTR Crossrail to do the stations which move to TfL.
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Post by sawb on May 12, 2015 19:11:29 GMT
IIRC of those three only 7 day travelcards are issued on Oyster. I won't be surprised if paper 7 day Travelcards continue to be issued at the AGA stations post May 31st until Oyster is enabled at the ticket office, although the franchise agreement with AGA states. If I've read this correctly, AGA have to provide Oyster at their remaining managed stations within the travelcard zones by the end of the month, which leaves LOROL/MTR Crossrail to do the stations which move to TfL. What stations would that leave needing to be done by AGA?
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Post by snoggle on May 12, 2015 21:00:09 GMT
I won't be surprised if paper 7 day Travelcards continue to be issued at the AGA stations post May 31st until Oyster is enabled at the ticket office, although the franchise agreement with AGA states. If I've read this correctly, AGA have to provide Oyster at their remaining managed stations within the travelcard zones by the end of the month, which leaves LOROL/MTR Crossrail to do the stations which move to TfL. What stations would that leave needing to be done by AGA? Presumably Northumberland Park to Waltham Cross inclusive. I know Waltham Cross is not "in boundary" but it does have Oyster acceptance. I know there is a NR window at T Hale LU but I've no idea what sort of ticket machine is on it. It's also up for discussion if Cheshunt and Broxbourne, again not "in boundary", would have their machines changed but they do have Oyster PAYG fares. Quite whether all those stops account for 21 ticket office machines I couldn't say. I'd be surprised if any of the within London stations have more than one ticket window given the stations are pretty basic. Angel Road has no ticketing facilities whatsoever other than Oyster validators. It's still a very interesting development that I was not expecting. It suggests a wider "Oysterisation" than I was expecting in NE London.
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Post by pridley on May 12, 2015 21:45:26 GMT
West Anglia timetables are now live www.tfl.gov.uk/modes/london-overground/london-overground-timetablesI could not see any changes from the recent interim timetables from Abelio. Disappointed that TFL did not take opportunity to extend peak frequency later into the day, but then they have a lot on their plate taking over this line. When speaking to a TFL staff member at Dalston the other day, he said to not expect any major changes until the whole franchise comes up for review in 2017. I imagine they expect to bag Hertford East services.
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Post by snoggle on May 12, 2015 22:53:13 GMT
West Anglia timetables are now live www.tfl.gov.uk/modes/london-overground/london-overground-timetablesI could not see any changes from the recent interim timetables from Abelio. Disappointed that TFL did not take opportunity to extend peak frequency later into the day, but then they have a lot on their plate taking over this line. When speaking to a TFL staff member at Dalston the other day, he said to not expect any major changes until the whole franchise comes up for review in 2017. I imagine they expect to bag Hertford East services. Don't expect any great expansion of services for a while. TfL need to be certain about rolling stock reliability and also have to negotiate extra paths with Network Rail if they want to run more services M-S. There is also a possible need, to be confirmed, that Chingford Line trains will have to strengthened to 8 cars all day during the Victoria Line blockade this August (for replacement of the crossover at Walthamstow). I don't expect TfL will gain services to Hertford East in 2017 - if the Government had wanted to transfer them then they would have done so. I also see no clamour from TfL to run to Hertford East. Even the proposed order for new trains doesn't really expand the total fleet size but if it's reliable enough then I guess it can be worked harder at off peak times. TfL are clearly being very modest in their ambitions for West Anglia which I think is understandable.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2015 13:42:34 GMT
What stations would that leave needing to be done by AGA? Presumably Northumberland Park to Waltham Cross inclusive. I know Waltham Cross is not "in boundary" but it does have Oyster acceptance. I know there is a NR window at T Hale LU but I've no idea what sort of ticket machine is on it. It's also up for discussion if Cheshunt and Broxbourne, again not "in boundary", would have their machines changed but they do have Oyster PAYG fares. Quite whether all those stops account for 21 ticket office machines I couldn't say. I'd be surprised if any of the within London stations have more than one ticket window given the stations are pretty basic. Angel Road has no ticketing facilities whatsoever other than Oyster validators. It's still a very interesting development that I was not expecting. It suggests a wider "Oysterisation" than I was expecting in NE London. Also presumably Lea Bridge when/if it reopens?
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Post by pridley on May 13, 2015 16:00:50 GMT
Press releases, post purda have commenced. This one states that increasing reliability and the train and station environment is the initial focus. Confirms that negotiations are under way with Network Rail to increase service levels. www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/12947190.TfL_pledges_to_improve_reliability_after_line_takeover/Incidentally, claims that there is no intention for TFL to take over Hertford East services ignore that two peak trains per hour go via Seven Sisters and the Hertford Route will eventually be TFL via Crossrail 2. Maybe it will become TFL rail after 2017? Abelio have been running 4 carriage trains on peak via Hertford East the last few days, after 9am. Is this work to rule?
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Post by stapler on May 13, 2015 16:23:09 GMT
There will certainly be a need to run 8 car Chingford trains all day during the Vic line shutdown. The platforms were long enough to run 9 cars on the slam door stock; how much of a job would it be to fit in 12?
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 13, 2015 16:41:23 GMT
the Hertford Route will eventually be TFL via Crossrail 2. Maybe it will become TFL rail after 2017? They won't even have started building XR2 by 2017, and as for Hertford East being served by it, that is surely mere speculation. It is not even certain whether TfL would operate it, or some unholy alliance of Stagecoach and Abellio (or whoever has the relevant franchises by then) Thameslink style. (It would be fun to have a service calling at both St Margarets stations though)
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Post by pridley on May 13, 2015 20:18:41 GMT
With the Tories having xr2 in their manifesto and there being a 5yr term, it seems a dead cert. Also, as with xr1, given that the business case requires London money, the Mayor will clearly require that the line is a TFL concession, indeed, that will be the motivation for the Mayor to stump up the cash.
The comment from a TFL staffer about things really starting to change after the franchise renewal does suggest a confidence that things will go TFLs way on inner west Anglia services.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 13, 2015 20:38:47 GMT
I could wallpaper my house with broken manifesto promises, but even if XR2 were to get the go-ahead tomorrow, it won't be anywhere near finished by 2020 - probably nearer 2030. (Enabling works started on Crossrail 1 in 2008 - and there was a lot of planning before that) TfL Rail would not take over the services until the relevant franchises expire. SWT's franchise still has four years to go. The East Anglia franchise is open for bidding shortly www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/406010/dft-east-anglia-prospectus.pdf
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Post by snoggle on May 13, 2015 20:43:41 GMT
Press releases, post purda have commenced. This one states that increasing reliability and the train and station environment is the initial focus. Confirms that negotiations are under way with Network Rail to increase service levels. www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/12947190.TfL_pledges_to_improve_reliability_after_line_takeover/Incidentally, claims that there is no intention for TFL to take over Hertford East services ignore that two peak trains per hour go via Seven Sisters and the Hertford Route will eventually be TFL via Crossrail 2. Maybe it will become TFL rail after 2017? Abelio have been running 4 carriage trains on peak via Hertford East the last few days, after 9am. Is this work to rule? No the "claims" are not ignoring anything. I think you are the person who is reading intent into a situation that simply doesn't exist. There is no sign *at all* that TfL want to take over Hertford East services. The peak hour Hertford East services via Seven Sisters are clearly remaining with Greater Anglia. Crossrail 2 is so far away as to be utterly irrelevant to what might happen next week, next year or in 5 years time. There is not a final settled route nor station locations nor legislation for Crossrail 2 nor is there any money to build it. In fact there are considerable concerns about how external funding could be secured to build CR2 as many of the sources used for CR1 simply don't apply to CR2 given its indicative route. There is certainly nothing in scope as to who will be running what trains and where. I also suspect that when / if the issue of who runs CR2 comes to be considered that there will be an almighty scrap because SWT certainly do not want to lose any of "their" network. They objected to CR2 in the consultation process last year. You obviously would *like* TfL to take over more NE London services and that's fine but it's not on the cards. The TfL "shopping list" for more devolution is targeted on the South of the Thames franchises that come up for renewal towards the end of this decade - South Eastern, TSGN and SWT. That has been said publicly in front of the London Assembly. When I do post this stuff it's typically on the basis on having read endless TfL documents, minutes and watching Assembly webcasts. I don't make it up!
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Post by snoggle on May 13, 2015 20:48:39 GMT
There will certainly be a need to run 8 car Chingford trains all day during the Vic line shutdown. The platforms were long enough to run 9 cars on the slam door stock; how much of a job would it be to fit in 12? The 9 car slam doors were the first rail public transport I ever used in London. I can still recall that very first journey on them. For a non Londoner it was like being in a scene from a TV series.
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Post by ashlar on May 13, 2015 21:59:12 GMT
I have also heard rumours that the WA services may undergo a significant change at LOROL franchise renewal, but I'm a little sceptical as I've seen no documentary evidence. The rumours I read on a social networking site were that Chingford line would become all stopping and 6 trains per hour in the new franchise, but I suspect that is just a made-up wish!
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Post by snoggle on May 13, 2015 22:18:23 GMT
I have also heard rumours that the WA services may undergo a significant change at LOROL franchise renewal, but I'm a little sceptical as I've seen no documentary evidence. The rumours I read on a social networking site were that Chingford line would become all stopping and 6 trains per hour in the new franchise, but I suspect that is just a made-up wish! The problem with that is that the approaches to Liverpool Street are full in the peaks as is the line through Clapton. You couldn't run 6 tph without compromising AGA's main line services. I can't see that happening because of the electoral fall out in Essex, Herts and Cambridgeshire. You can guarantee Stansted Airport would be top of the whinge list given they want faster trains and more of them. It would also be likely to devalue the Greater Anglia franchise which is the last thing DfT wants. Furthermore there are no plans from TfL or Network Rail for such a service level from Chingford. It's also not been flagged as an issue in the Greater Anglia franchise consultation documents. The only thing blowing around in terms of aspiration (from passenger groups and Network Rail) is a Stratford - Chingford service if the Low Hall Farm curve was reinstated. However that's decades away (as it has been for the last 10-15 years ).
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Post by pridley on May 13, 2015 22:33:10 GMT
Hmm. But at the time of the franchise renewal, we are moving towards Stratford to Angel Road (STAR) services commencing plus Crossrail 1 releases some capacity from Liverpool Street.
Say for example that the two Hertford East trains per hour running to Liverpool Street are running via the STAR track, that allows six trains per hour via Chingford. Release space for two trains per hour via WA, and you get to the minimum optimum of four trains per hour on the Cheshunt and Enfield Town branches, 8 trains per hour south of Edmonton Green. TFL would like to maintain that off-peak no doubt.
If all four trains per hour peak service Hertford East trains all run via the STAR track, you could potentially route the two Hertford East via Seven Sisters via Tottenham Hale, allowing for six trains per hour via Cheshunt. Infact, by making all trains stopping at all stations, maybe that releases capacity for six trains per hour via Enfield Town, 12 trains per hour south of Edmonton Green, (There is capacity to send a few of these to Barking via the South Tottenham curve once that line is electrified if Liverpool Street lacks capacity). 18 trains per hour south of Hackney Downs.
A pipe dream, but look what they have achieved with ELL.
Stage two would be to allow greater frequencies via re-modelling of Liverpool Street, which is in the long term Greater Anglia plan.
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Post by Chris M on May 13, 2015 23:52:36 GMT
The capacity at Liverpool Street that will be released by Crossrail is not going to be wasted - I can't remember what is going to use it, but something is definitely going to. I'm not familiar with the capacities in this area, but stopping trains generally take away capacity from fast services, and it isn't always as simple that diverting trains releases the same capacity on the lines they vacate - trains have to slow down for junctions, and track layouts may mean there are more conflicting moves to be made.
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Post by stapler on May 14, 2015 7:59:34 GMT
The Chingford line had 6tph, more in peaks, immediately following electrification.
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Post by peterc on May 14, 2015 9:22:45 GMT
But there was no airport service then. Over the years capacity has been shifted to longer distance services.
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Post by norbitonflyer on May 14, 2015 9:24:12 GMT
The Chingfords could only become all-stations if they are diverted onto the slow lines between Bethnal Green and Hackney Downs. Particularly at he latter, this would increase the number of conflicting moves and reduce capacity.
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Post by pridley on May 14, 2015 19:06:25 GMT
The Chingfords could only become all-stations if they are diverted onto the slow lines between Bethnal Green and Hackney Downs. Particularly at he latter, this would increase the number of conflicting moves and reduce capacity. Chingfords already join the slow tracks at Bethnal Green, as do Cambridge and Stansted trains. Maybe removing Shenfield services can help avoid this bottleneck? Thus, given that services already merge, surely, it will be a matter of adjusting signalling? effectively you have the mainline and metro lines merged all the way between Bethnal Green and Liverpool Street. No wonder services are restricted! Issues like this make me convinced that major works to Liverpool Street and surrounds will commence soon after Crossrail, London Bridge and Thames Link are complete. London has now demonstrated ability to concurrently work on multiple projects, and so Thameslink, Crossrail and London Bridge may well turn into HS2, Liverpool Street, Euston and XR2. Particularly if this parliament delivers devolved powers to the Mayor including greater control over business rates. They will want to maintain capacity to deliver these projects and not loose funding streams to other places, so I think we will only see the rate of investment accelerate as politicians begin to panic over projected increases in London population. Indeed, no doubt, classified data on the real London population, which most likely, is a few million over the reported levels.
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Post by pridley on May 15, 2015 9:16:37 GMT
Looking forward, I do not expect now any service enhancements until they increase Victoria Line tube in 2016 to 36 trains per hour. Also, I doubt that they will work all units all day, increasing off peak to match peak services until the new stock comes in.
TFLs focus on reliability is interesting. Note that on peak services via Seven Sisters take 5mins longer between Edmonton Green and Liverpool Street. 32mins vs 27mins. No doubt the new trains could beat 27mins due to better acceleration and breaking.
Clearly. If TFL can demonstrate on peak reliability, they could justify a tighter timetable to Network Rail. Incidentally, we may needs to see the new stock before this happens fully. With an existing eight trains per hour at peak, with each being 5 mins shorter in time, you can see massive timetabling potential, particularly once Liverpool Street releases capacity to Crossrail.
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Post by stapler on May 15, 2015 14:28:57 GMT
<<But there was no airport service then. Over the years capacity has been shifted to longer distance services.>> Airport is only 4tph - arguably too much, since they are rarely at capacity. 3tph would suffice
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Post by pridley on May 15, 2015 20:22:33 GMT
Stapler, Stansted have planning permission to double flights. Services will not be reduced.
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Post by snoggle on May 16, 2015 8:41:26 GMT
The capacity at Liverpool Street that will be released by Crossrail is not going to be wasted - I can't remember what is going to use it, but something is definitely going to. I'm not familiar with the capacities in this area, but stopping trains generally take away capacity from fast services, and it isn't always as simple that diverting trains releases the same capacity on the lines they vacate - trains have to slow down for junctions, and track layouts may mean there are more conflicting moves to be made. It's my understanding that Crossrail will still run 6 tph in the peak direction into / out of Liverpool St surface platforms. To the extent that there are released train paths then the desire is to expand fast / semi fast services from Essex. We also need to consider the pressure from Norfolk and Suffolk for faster services on the GE Main Line into London. The regional LEP (local enterprise partnership) has persuaded the Chancellor to undertake a study into improving the rail links. In the much longer term, as set out in Network Rail's "connectivity" consultation, is a plan to remodel the western approaches at Stratford to allow Stansted services to run via Stratford / Lea Bridge. There would be a flyover built to get trains over the GE lines from platforms 11 / 12 at Stratford. To be honest I'll believe that one when I see it. There are an awful lot of ideas / aspirations for rail services into Liverpool St and Stratford and there must be some risk that the same "spare" capacity or capacity growth ideas are being consumed several times over by different plans. Hopefully one day we will see some clarity but the one thing that is notably absent, at this point in time, is a loud voice arguing for improvements to local London area stopping services. Putting CR1 to one side there is no loud voice (yet) saying that the local suburban trains need substantial improvement. In fact the plan is almost certainly to make CR2 take up that mantle despite the shockingly bad (IMO) station spacing in North London. I guess TfL might start arguing for better local services once they take over inner West Anglia but it's not going to be easy to increase things in any substantial way without spending big bucks to squeeze capacity out of the approach tracks to Liv St. I am not convinced that harking back to the days of steam operation carries much weight in today's railway which operates under different rules and safety requirements.
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Post by pridley on May 16, 2015 12:59:26 GMT
From what I understood, the six trains per hour was the initial overall off-peak provision, with twelve trains per hour through the central core at peak, and maybe two trains per hour from Abelio running the slow route to Liverpool Street. Frankly, I am very annoyed that any slow trains will be allowed to Liverpool Street. They should completely clear that for West Anglia route, compensating with a requirement for Abelio to have all fast trains stop at Stratford to provide interchange. The six trains per hour from Shenfield to Liverpool Street should provide six new trains per hour from West Anglia mainline to Liverpool Street via Stratford. Hopefully that is what they do.
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Post by stapler on May 16, 2015 17:10:06 GMT
There are no "slow" trains into LV from Stratford - they are all fast with no intermediate station. As for Stansted, they have had permission to increase the mppa for years, and patronage of the airport station has been diminishing. The trains are never full. Quite agree that all GEML services should stop at Stratford, which is now the centre of the universe. There was, of course, a flyunder provided at Stratford in the late 40s, for the LNE Loughton and Epping trains, which became part of the Central Line. IMO there is a good case for confining the Central Line to the Loop and 4-tracking to Leytonstone to allow the Epping Line to become NR again. The govt LOIS study some ten years ago mooted an Ongar-Chelmsford extension to serve new development in the mid-Essex countryside and relieve the GEML. Now, there's a thought....
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Post by peterc on May 16, 2015 21:09:46 GMT
And then "fast" to Maryland and then "fast" from Maryland to Forest Gate?
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