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Post by malcolmffc on Aug 19, 2014 17:09:16 GMT
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 19, 2014 19:57:21 GMT
Could be, although both lines have run mixed fleets before (if you count the time when the Jubilee was part of the Bakerloo, or when they ran the 1986 stock)
What it definitely won't be is what the picture accompanying the article shows. At least, not if they are to run south of Finchley Road, East Finchley or Golders Green.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 2:31:27 GMT
The intention is to buy the modern equivalent of both 95 and 96 stock (so not quite clones but definitely not new designs). It will be a split order for some additional trains for the Jubilee line to further increase tph and additional trains for the Northern line extension to Battersea and then for a further tph uplift on Northern line.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 20, 2014 10:23:28 GMT
Could be, although both lines have run mixed fleets before (if you count the time when the Jubilee was part of the Bakerloo, or when they ran the 1986 stock) What it definitely won't be is what the picture accompanying the article shows. At least, not if they are to run south of Finchley Road, East Finchley or Golders Green. It's a thought though - hand Finchley Road - Stanmore back to the Met, and you can run it, and the surface sections of the Northern Line (and the Central?) with airconditioned trains. Cross-platform interchanges between surface and tube sections like they do at Queens Park? |
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Antje
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Post by Antje on Aug 20, 2014 14:31:51 GMT
I know that the MP89 (1997-) and MP05 (2011-) fleet of Paris have similar designs but have an operational life difference of about 14 years. I expect they will be similar to existing trains, but probably new interiors and definitely TBTC compatible technology. Extra scenario: In Barcelona, L1 has the older 4000 (from 1987) and newer 6000 series (from 2007) running together:   The 4000 series is the second oldest after the 3000 of L3 (delivered 1986):    Left-right: 2000 series, introduced 1992; 3000 series, introduced 1986; 5000 series, introduced 2005. The bottom line: TfL can run two types of trains for a single tube line, as long as they are compatible with each other. |
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Post by DrOne on Sept 5, 2014 20:39:06 GMT
I think it has been asked previously whether the Northern 1995 stock could be transferred to the Piccadilly to provide an increased service with ATO. Of course this would require a uniform new fleet for the Northern to be ordered as replacement and a synchronous fit of the Piccadilly line with TBTC.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2014 12:11:59 GMT
...the Northern 1995 stock could be transferred to the Piccadilly to provide an increased service with ATO... I think LU is hinting on that by refurbishing the interiors with Piccadilly line colours. |
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Post by Tomcakes on Sept 6, 2014 13:22:36 GMT
Is there any precedent for such a large gap between orders? By the time they enter service (assuming the ITT goes out early 2015, it'll probably be early or mid 2016 by the time they actually go anywhere) they'll be 20 years newer than the 95/96ts. ...the Northern 1995 stock could be transferred to the Piccadilly to provide an increased service with ATO... I think LU is hinting on that by refurbishing the interiors with Piccadilly line colours. I believe the notion of individual lines having discrete interiors is long dead - the 95ts 'refurbishment' (I'd more call it a lick of paint and some new flooring) looks, if anything, more like the 09ts. Anyway, I'm pretty sure that a possible thing which may or may not happen several years in the future wouldn't influence what colour the seats are! |
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Post by will on Sept 6, 2014 17:58:29 GMT
Is there room available for the additional trains?
There is a little room at Edgeware and Barnet but any at Morden???
will they need to build additional sidings for 50 new trains and how many sidings is Battersea expected to have?
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Post by superteacher on Sept 6, 2014 18:43:11 GMT
Is there room available for the additional trains? There is a little room at Edgeware and Barnet but any at Morden??? will they need to build additional sidings for 50 new trains and how many sidings is Battersea expected to have? You wouldn't need space for 50 more trains. There will probably be a couple of sidings at Battersea rather like there are at Walthamstow Central, Brixton and Elephant and Castle. These would be needed to stable the last trains and then form the first trains next morning. Otherwise, Battersea would be quite a way from the nearest depot. |
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Post by domh245 on Sept 6, 2014 19:03:03 GMT
Something that I saw in the tender available here is that they talk about cascading. It would seem that the main order is just for 5 trains for the northern, but with an extra 63 trains on option for Jubilee and Northern. That would bring repsective fleets up to 81 96TS 7 car sets (from 63) and 156 95TS 6 car sets (from 106). What is interesting especially is to see which way the possible cascade would go - When I read that, it gives the implication that the Jubilee could be the line to benefit- ie: Jubilee gets all 68 new trains, with those that were going to go to the Northern receiving the 7th car off of the 96TS, which get a refresh and have works done to make them more similar to 95TS, such as cab modifications, changing the traction packages and bogies, and go off to join the northern fleet. However, that does leave 13 extra 96TS trailers left over, unless there are 13 96 which remain on the Jubilee? That would leave 68 trains on the Jubilee (net increase of 5) and 169 on the Northern. That's just my speculative reading of it though, and probably more complicated than necessary |
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 6, 2014 19:51:41 GMT
Does anyone know whether there is anything to get excited about here & if so when?
Will the proposed stock be bringing something new to the Northern Line passenger 'experience', or even improving it?
I just wondered if anyone knows if TfL's detailed yet what this would bring-improved comfort? Time-keeping? Increased service levels? All 3? Something else entirely?
Thanks in advance for any answers.
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Post by Indefatigable on Sept 6, 2014 19:57:27 GMT
Can't be the Northern Line - runs nowhere near Yorkshire!!!
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 6, 2014 21:30:49 GMT
Ah, but maybe it's now going to do what it says on the tin-go over the Northern Heights and reach you in 'Ull.
New depot at Mill Hill East-145 mph bullet trains, next stop, East Riding of Yorkshire.
From this week's deadline-day deals, you've got the cash for it! 
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Post by Indefatigable on Sept 6, 2014 22:10:41 GMT
Ah, but maybe it's now going to do what it says on the tin-go over the Northern Heights and reach you in 'Ull.
New depot at Mill Hill East-145 mph bullet trains, next stop, East Riding of Yorkshire.
From this week's deadline-day deals, you've got the cash for it!
Well it is only 3 hours, 57 minutes at a max speed of 45MPH... I presume it would be in full Auto Mode in order to skip Watford Gap service station? |
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Antje
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Post by Antje on Sept 7, 2014 2:46:25 GMT
Something that I saw in the tender available here is that they talk about cascading. It would seem that the main order is just for 5 trains for the northern, but with an extra 63 trains on option for Jubilee and Northern. That would bring repsective fleets up to 81 96TS 7 car sets (from 63) and 156 95TS 6 car sets (from 106). What is interesting especially is to see which way the possible cascade would go - When I read that, it gives the implication that the Jubilee could be the line to benefit- ie: Jubilee gets all 68 new trains, with those that were going to go to the Northern receiving the 7th car off of the 96TS, which get a refresh and have works done to make them more similar to 95TS, such as cab modifications, changing the traction packages and bogies, and go off to join the northern fleet. However, that does leave 13 extra 96TS trailers left over, unless there are 13 96 which remain on the Jubilee? That would leave 68 trains on the Jubilee (net increase of 5) and 169 on the Northern. That's just my speculative reading of it though, and probably more complicated than necessary Cascading might refer to interchangeability between the two lines given that they are both using TBTC, but movements between two lines is anything but simple unless you build a new connection of any kind (preferably route that gives Charing Cross Jubilee a new lease of life). At present, for instance and from what I remember, a operator has to go via the Piccadilly line and I am not sure if the 95/96 stock are compatible with the Brompton Road curves. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2014 3:00:02 GMT
I fear if they're gonna do it, they'll do it by road. If it can be done by rail (I don't know if they can get round the Brompton Rd curves), I think you're right the Picc is the only way it could be done. However, I think in future it'll probably be done by road, if it's done - whether it can be done by rail or not. I can't see a new link being built. I wonder what the best way to go would be once on the Picc. Probably up to Rayners Lane, do you think, and from there down to Wembley Park? I suppose the other possibility is District to Edgware Road to Baker Street, onto the Met and up to, well, you'd have to go all the way to Neasden these days, wouldn't you?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2014 9:04:08 GMT
If I remember right, the northern line is one of the lines to be 24 hour? That would mean that they could in theory get away with fewer sidings, but brings the issue of a what if type situation.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Sept 7, 2014 9:14:27 GMT
The Night Tube, to be introduced from September 2015, would only operate on Friday and Saturday nights.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2014 16:07:24 GMT
Does anyone know whether there is anything to get excited about here & if so when?
Will the proposed stock be bringing something new to the Northern Line passenger 'experience', or even improving it?
I just wondered if anyone knows if TfL's detailed yet what this would bring-improved comfort? Time-keeping? Increased service levels? All 3? Something else entirely?
Thanks in advance for any answers.
The extra Jubilee trains will go towards increasing the frequency up to about 34tph. The first few Northern line trains will be to allow a service on the Northern line extension and if the bigger order goes ahead it will result in an increased frequency on the Northern line (mostly on the central and northern branches). I can't remember the proposed tph. |
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 7, 2014 16:23:26 GMT
Does anyone know whether there is anything to get excited about here & if so when?
Will the proposed stock be bringing something new to the Northern Line passenger 'experience', or even improving it?
I just wondered if anyone knows if TfL's detailed yet what this would bring-improved comfort? Time-keeping? Increased service levels? All 3? Something else entirely?
Thanks in advance for any answers.
The extra Jubilee trains will go towards increasing the frequency up to about 34tph. The first few Northern line trains will be to allow a service on the Northern line extension and if the bigger order goes ahead it will result in an increased frequency on the Northern line (mostly on the central and northern branches). I can't remember the proposed tph.
Not excitement, but relief is hereby engendered with that news.
I'm glad the priority is increasing the train frequency throughout, because I bet that would be number 1 priority for the majority of passengers on both lines, if they were consulted, and maybe they were-good for TfL!
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Post by DrOne on Sept 8, 2014 20:36:13 GMT
Interesting. So this would potentially address the stock issue constraining frequency on the Jubilee. Focus logically then turns to how the existing infrastructure might affect the ability to turn 34tph at the NW end of the line?
There has been a fair bit of overlap between topics and lines so apologies if this belongs elsewhere. Mods: please move as you feel appropriate.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 9, 2014 12:43:39 GMT
If the new trains are more different from 95/96 ts than 95 and 96 are from each other, it might be sensible to convert some 96s to 95s (or vice versa) so that only one line is running a mixed fleet.
As far as I am aware the only physical connection between the Northern Line and the rest of the network is the "Kings Cross loop" connection with the Picadilly - whether 95/96 bodyshells are too ong to fit round the corners at Brompton Road I don't know (73 stock is a similar length, surely?)
Of course, Golders Green and Neasden are less than two miles apart round the North Circular Road, and if the new trains are brought in by road the wagons would already be available to effect the transfer
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Sept 9, 2014 12:54:24 GMT
73 stock is ever so slightly longer, iirc (inches). And yes, the 95ts can do Brompton road curves because thats how they got onto the Northern line in the first place. Its the Vics 09ts that cant. Allegedly.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Sept 9, 2014 12:57:53 GMT
The only stock I can think of with a 20 year gap in deliveries is the R stock, which spanned 38-59. Obviously this was with converted cars though. The standard stock trailers for the 60ts would have been contenders had the initial plan gone ahead. The H stocks varieties spanned 1910-1935.
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Post by DrOne on Sept 10, 2014 13:13:48 GMT
Putting everything together (including the hint about cascades, efficiency and cost savings) I wonder whether the replacements for the Bakerloo could feature in this plan somehow. We know the 1972 stock is old so this might be a convenient way to replace the fleet without having to wait for a new design.
So if 59 of the 63 Jubilee 1996 stock (except for the 4 newer trains) are replaced by "new replica" stock the 59 displaced trains (minus 7th carriage) could be split between Bakerloo lines and Northern lines. This would leave us with:
Jubilee - total 72 trains (68 "new replica" but inclusive of existing 7th cars plus 4 x 7-car trains added in 2003/4)
Northern - total 129 trains (106 x 1995 stock plus 23 x 1996 stock)
Bakerloo - 36 x 1996 stock.
Alternatively if all of the 1996 stock are cascaded for the Northern upgrade, might it still be more efficient to add the Bakerlo trains to the new replica order than waiting for new trains?
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Post by jpd888 on Sept 11, 2014 0:05:46 GMT
At 17.77m per car, is it possible to get the 96 stock through the Bakerloo line? There are some very tight curves at Waterloo, Piccadilly and Paddington.
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Post by crusty54 on Sept 11, 2014 5:12:32 GMT
The new trains are for enhanced services on the Northern and Jubilee lines not to replace existing trains.
If/when the Northern line is split much more frequent services will be possible particularly to/from Battersea.
The Bakerloo will get new trains but not for many years hence the work on the current trains.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2014 5:46:49 GMT
I have been told that the 95/96 stock cars are too long for the Bakerloo and the 1972s are only 15.99m, 1.7m shorter than the 1995/96s. As far as I'm aware the 1972s will get a major overhaul and carry on in service until they are replaced by the "New Train for London" around 2030.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Sept 11, 2014 14:11:35 GMT
There must be serious gauging problems on the Bakerloo preventing it from getting longer carriages, else it might have ended up with TfLs most reliable fleet, the 73ts, after the pic gets its new trains. As it is though, any serious expenditure on the 72ts is only justifiable if they are made to work for another couple of decades.
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