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Post by dpr on Jul 28, 2014 18:02:13 GMT
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rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
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Post by rincew1nd on Jul 28, 2014 18:10:30 GMT
For reference the original thread is here. In accordance with Forum Rule 7.3 I've added a link to this thread in the original, and it is here that any discussion should occur.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Jul 28, 2014 18:43:41 GMT
For reference the original thread is here. In accordance with Forum Rule 7.3 I've added a link to this thread in the original, and it is here that any discussion should occur.Can't help noticing quite a few sloppy errors in this report, which sadly is not the first RAIB report where I have seen this. RAIB can and must do better than this. As for the general theme, get the feeling this one appears to be very much a case of 'blame the driver'. The reality is that the driver actually appears to have handled the incident calmly and professionally. Even if an announcement had been made, would this have been heard above all the noise we hear in the You Tube film?
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Post by causton on Jul 28, 2014 19:40:52 GMT
For reference the original thread is here. In accordance with Forum Rule 7.3 I've added a link to this thread in the original, and it is here that any discussion should occur.Can't help noticing quite a few sloppy errors in this report, which sadly is not the first RAIB report where I have seen this. RAIB can and must do better than this. As someone who hasn't (and probably wouldn't) pick up on these errors, any clues as to what the errors are?
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Post by jamesb on Jul 28, 2014 20:41:38 GMT
My take:
I don't think it doesn't blame the driver. The driver followed to rule book to the letter, it seems.
1) Wrong to dismiss event as passenger overreacting if thats what LU initially did as report implies. "Wednesday March 3, 1943. 173 people died in a terrifying crush as panic spread through the crowds of people trying to enter the station's bomb shelter [at Bethnal Green]" and this proves that panic and hysteria can cause loss of life.
2) Responding to several PEAs at once is interesting point. In a real emergency, several PEAs is perfectly likely to occur, e.g smoke in tunnel. I wonder if some passengers thought that the PEA handle would somehow directly release the doors. Most people don't read any instructions they just pull the handle. In this day and age, it should be easy for a computer to display the carriages where the PEA is activated, like a fire alarm control panel.
3) Carrying the connect radio seems perfectly sensible , for the drivers own protection if nothing else. If s/he encounters a fight, or a fire, surely having the handheld radio is very advantageous. Why would't you bring it?
4) Why can the external butterfly cocks be marked up with emergency door release stickers? The only way they could be operated is from the platform , so passengers couldn't detrain themselves inappropriately in a tunnel from inside the train. This incident shows that it can't always be assumed that staff will be nearby to manage the situation.
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Post by domh245 on Jul 28, 2014 20:50:18 GMT
I vaguely remember that at that time this happened, the discussion about passenger use of butterfly cocks (or emergency egress devices), and we noted that whilst it would be good for situations like this, it could be rather disadvantageous for everyday operations, because as soon as you give people a big thing saying "pull to open the door, emergency use only) it would then start to get abused by people who have just had doors closed in their face, and various miscreants out for a 'laugh'. That said though, the EEDs on s stock are fairly obvious, but don't seem to have been operated maliciously enough to see it become 'abuse'
To be honest, in a real emergency, there are always alternative means of accesing/leaving the train, often the window if it is a 92, D, or S stock, it may be more problematic on the smaller windows of other stock (but not impossible)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 20:52:29 GMT
Sorry, I was responding particularly to jamesb's 4 points, I should've just quoted you.
I'm yet to finish reading it, but I'd just like to make a few points.
2) I'm pretty sure on the 92s it does show which carriages the PEAs were activated in (see Figure 7, p.12)
4) I would worry about pranksters abusing these, I really would.
However, you make a very good point about people being unsure what to do and not seeming to know which buttons did what. In the video of the event, you can see a lot of people pressing (often incorrectly, with the cover still down) the emergency stop plungers, as if expecting them to release the doors. The instructions on these plungers are quite plain and the train was very much already stopped - that was not the problem. They also pressed the fire alarms (again, as if expecting a more impressive response). The only button people didn't press was the one that probably would've been most useful - the emergency button on the help point, which might have allowed people on the platform to contact a member of staff.
But, of course, as you say, in an emergency people panic. I think - I really do - that people are not well-versed enough in what to do in the event of an incident on LUL. I'm not suggesting airplane style safety briefings, but I wonder if something couldn't be done to advise the conscientious commuter - some leaflets or something along the lines of those little posters with poems telling you to get off at the next stop and not leave your metros lying around.
I would also say I think people *did* overreact, but understandably and I think the role that panic plays is important to remember - you are spot on. But I do think that passengers behaved in a way that put themselves in more danger. They did this for very understandable reasons, I'm not having a go at them - their actions were completely to be expected, their fear was quite reasonable and I have sympathy for them. But I think they behaved incorrectly. Understandably they did, but I do think we can all try and learn the lesson that panicking is usually quite bad for you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 20:58:58 GMT
I was surprised why was the Traction Current was not discharged promptly, as is usually the case in this type of situation...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 20:59:47 GMT
To be honest, in a real emergency, there are always alternative means of accesing/leaving the train, often the window if it is a 92, D, or S stock, it may be more problematic on the smaller windows of other stock (but not impossible) Ideally, I think evacuation should usually be out of the front and/or rear cab (through the M door, I think it's called) via the interconnecting doors, but obviously on a crowded train any movement at all would've been very difficult and it would not (repeat not) have been wise to attempt an uncontrolled evacuation onto the track with traction current on. (To clarify: that's if the doors are not an option and would have to be undertaken in a controlled manner. I'm not sure how much you can safely do on your own accord, I'm not sure trying to climb out of the windows would be better than what happened at Holland Park) In my exquisitely unqualified opinion, the right thing to do in this situation, really, is to pull the handle, state the problem clearly and - while awaiting instructions - open all ventilation panels and windows. I would have attempted to gain someone's attention and have them open the doors using the butterfly cocks, but obviously most people didn't know about them, so couldn't do so. However, obviously, there was smoke and people feared they would burn alive. Without any message or instructions they understandably wanted out now and weren't about to wait patiently. Fire kills and so does smoke. What you want is some staff, really, but LUL doesn't like staff.
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Post by jamesb on Jul 28, 2014 21:12:18 GMT
I think it has to be assumed that passengers are children, will behave illogically, pull and press everything press-able, not read any notices, not speak english, be drunk and incapable of looking after themselves.
And then think, when they do all those things, how much damage can they do.
In actual fact, very little, apart from cause confusion.
The only thing that might improve things is to make the inter car barriers harder to climb over.
And some 'cockpit resource management' or equivalent for the driver to be able to interpret a sudden deluge of multiple sources of [sometimes conflicting] information. This incident highlights that drivers have a very responsible job , and should be paid and trained accordingly.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 21:26:49 GMT
Also:
Paragraph 56: Station CCTV recorded evacuating passengers assisting others to carry pushchairs and to help elderly passengers up the stairs.
You are not serious? Take your children out and carry them by all means, but leave the heavy, large, obstructive, cumbersome pushchairs behind. Am I missing something? I can't be the only one to think that carrying pushchairs up emergency stairs ain't a great idea.
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Post by rsdworker on Jul 28, 2014 21:27:54 GMT
in most Metros around world have emergency exit door - example Newscatle and Mersyrail both have emergency exit handles above the doors and DLR does have those fitted at floor level - the problem is if opeartor is knocked out or killed then passengers has to try to open doors to get out of danager - remember centrail line derailment years ago - people found buttefly to open the doors and some tried to kick out window to escape from danger that's reason emergency exit is there for safety to evacuate from danger of smoke or any situations skytrain in canada is one of
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Post by domh245 on Jul 28, 2014 21:29:46 GMT
Having had a brief read of the report, they compare it to a fire at South Kensington (ISTR a C stock embarrassing itself) where the passengers behave rationally and calmly. Might it be a series of unfortunate events involved, notting hill carnival (drinks, party atmosphere, and increased loadings), the incident, and an apparent lack of information during the incident.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 21:35:47 GMT
A thought which occurred to me, which I thought was wisely brought out in the report (see paragraph 63) was that the evacuation message played in response to the activation of the fire alarms probably made things much worse for people on the train, as it would have lead them to believe that there was definitely a fire and that they were being instructed to get out, but they could not get out.
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Post by rsdworker on Jul 28, 2014 21:41:49 GMT
Also: Paragraph 56: Station CCTV recorded evacuating passengers assisting others to carry pushchairs and to help elderly passengers up the stairs. You are not serious? Take your children out and carry them by all means, but leave the heavy, large, obstructive, cumbersome pushchairs behind. Am I missing something? I can't be the only one to think that carrying pushchairs up emergency stairs ain't a great idea. i agree - in newer stations - a special evacuation lift is provided for this reason to allow pushchairs and wheelchairs and older people to get out of station quickly - in older stations with lifts on lower landing (not step free station) where spiral stairs provided - has be lift turned to UP mode which allows people use lift in UP mode to clear station quickly but that station has turned off when fire alarm was sounding and lift operator left the area to investigate - my opinion is - they should turned on Emergency mode - which allows lift return to lower landing to collect all people with disabled or heavy luggage or any sort that requires lift has be operator standing to control crowds and also provide evacuation chair for people who can't climb stairs - those should fitted near staircases even best is leave them behind in real emergency
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 21:52:14 GMT
Can't help noticing quite a few sloppy errors in this report, which sadly is not the first RAIB report where I have seen this. RAIB can and must do better than this. As someone who hasn't (and probably wouldn't) pick up on these errors, any clues as to what the errors are? I myself noticed in footnote 5: "When the train is being operated in coded manual mode (see footnote 4), the emergency brakes are used to control train speed to 25 mph (40 km/h)." That is simply not true to the best of my knowledge (although was, I believe, the case on the old 67s wasn't it?), in the general case. It is possible that the MSS at the time was 40 (the footnote reefers to paragraph 69 which states, in part, "At 18:33 hrs when the train was between Notting Hill Gate and Holland Park stations, the emergency brakes were again applied, this time for only a few seconds, to correct a train overspeed"), in which case that would be true in the specific case. It would be true that the emergency brakes were used to correct an overspeed where the train exceeded an MSS of 40. However, if that is what was intended, the sentence is misleading.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 22:10:17 GMT
For reference the original thread is here. In accordance with Forum Rule 7.3 I've added a link to this thread in the original, and it is here that any discussion should occur.As for the general theme, get the feeling this one appears to be very much a case of 'blame the driver'. The reality is that the driver actually appears to have handled the incident calmly and professionally. Even if an announcement had been made, would this have been heard above all the noise we hear in the You Tube film? Sorry, I don't mean to do all the talking here, I'm just making my way through the report and making any remarks that come to mind. I think that in paragraph 66 (the introductory précis of "Identification of causal factors") the report is unduly unkind about the Train Operator who I think responded well. After acknowledging the call and using the talkback facility he was understandably minded to go an investigate, calm the passengers, and report back to Wood Lane. However, I really do think a train-wide PA to the effect would have been really helpful, even if the lack of one is understandable. Edit (Tut gets what he deserves for speaking to soon): However, as highlighted in paragraph 118: "The train operator was also confused about who could hear his talkback communication, stating that he mistakenly believed he had spoken to the whole train. Other train operators told the RAIB that they did not know if pressing the talkback button connected the operator with all of the cars in which a passenger emergency alarm handle had been operated." This strikes me as a shortfall in training and I reaffirm my general sympathies for North End's original comments. It seems unfair to attribute much blame to the driver for not making a train-wide PA (as he reasonably believed he had done so). I do feel the report could have done more to bring out the reasonableness and appropriateness of the T/Ops actions, especially given what he knew, was and wasn't told and what he could be expected to know and to deduce.
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Post by dpr on Jul 28, 2014 22:11:00 GMT
Also: Paragraph 56: Station CCTV recorded evacuating passengers assisting others to carry pushchairs and to help elderly passengers up the stairs. You are not serious? Take your children out and carry them by all means, but leave the heavy, large, obstructive, cumbersome pushchairs behind. Am I missing something? I can't be the only one to think that carrying pushchairs up emergency stairs ain't a great idea. i agree - in newer stations - a special evacuation lift is provided for this reason to allow pushchairs and wheelchairs and older people to get out of station quickly - in older stations with lifts on lower landing (not step free station) where spiral stairs provided - has be lift turned to UP mode which allows people use lift in UP mode to clear station quickly but that station has turned off when fire alarm was sounding and lift operator left the area to investigate - my opinion is - they should turned on Emergency mode - which allows lift return to lower landing to collect all people with disabled or heavy luggage or any sort that requires lift has be operator standing to control crowds and also provide evacuation chair for people who can't climb stairs - those should fitted near staircases even best is leave them behind in real emergency In a station like Holland Park, when there is a fire alarm, the procedure should be that the lifts get taken out of service as soon as possible, as is generally the case in tall buldings and the like. The risk of having people stuck in a lift when staff are dealing with a potential fire is too much. For those unable physically to make the climb up the stairs, the means of evacuation would be via a train. In this case it would have needed to have been on the opposite platform to the stopped train of course. If needs be an empty train would be arranged.
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Post by rsdworker on Jul 29, 2014 6:36:01 GMT
i agree - in newer stations - a special evacuation lift is provided for this reason to allow pushchairs and wheelchairs and older people to get out of station quickly - in older stations with lifts on lower landing (not step free station) where spiral stairs provided - has be lift turned to UP mode which allows people use lift in UP mode to clear station quickly but that station has turned off when fire alarm was sounding and lift operator left the area to investigate - my opinion is - they should turned on Emergency mode - which allows lift return to lower landing to collect all people with disabled or heavy luggage or any sort that requires lift has be operator standing to control crowds and also provide evacuation chair for people who can't climb stairs - those should fitted near staircases even best is leave them behind in real emergency In a station like Holland Park, when there is a fire alarm, the procedure should be that the lifts get taken out of service as soon as possible, as is generally the case in tall buldings and the like. The risk of having people stuck in a lift when staff are dealing with a potential fire is too much. For those unable physically to make the climb up the stairs, the means of evacuation would be via a train. In this case it would have needed to have been on the opposite platform to the stopped train of course. If needs be an empty train would be arranged. yeah but there was no mention of evacuation plan for those in report - but eastbound was non stopping - its shows clear that LUL needs make a better plan example take disabled or heavy things or elders to safety
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Post by jamesb on Jul 29, 2014 7:00:55 GMT
Are LU obliged to follow the recommendations in the report?
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Jul 29, 2014 7:37:05 GMT
Yes.
I haven't had time to read the report yet, but what was the cause of the smoke in the first place?
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Post by domh245 on Jul 29, 2014 7:40:43 GMT
The raib said it was a flashover, but there was also a dragging brake in one of the cars, the smell of which contributed to the panic
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Post by tjw on Jul 29, 2014 8:10:14 GMT
yeah but there was no mention of evacuation plan for those in report - but eastbound was non stopping - its shows clear that LUL needs make a better plan example take disabled or heavy things or elders to safety I am sure there are lots of research into how people react in an emergency... But some brief points, 1. In an emergency the able-bodied will evacuate following the signs. Hopefully without panic! 2. Women and children may be encouraged to go first. 3. The able-bodied may choose to help those with luggage / children / infirm / disabled. 4. It is always going to be a problem evacuating those using wheelchairs (ever try lifting one? Prams are so much easier!)So how could we improve this to help the less able bodied?A. Separate signs showing another evacuation route. But this will cause confusion, with people evacuating having conflicting escape routes, let alone the problem of the average person reading signs.B. Stopping another train. This will have to be empty, as we cannot risk more people overloading the escape routes. How long does it take to empty a train and move it to the next station to be used to evacuate the less able. Who would want to wait around?C. Using the lifts. Lifts are not recommended to be used in a fire for an number of reasons, we don't want extra people trapped in a very inaccessible location. We don't want the lift shaft to turn into a chimney and so help draw the fire. I hope these new emergency escape lifts have some good fire doors that will not jam open, I also hope they have a reliable electricity supply. I also hope that the member of staff that will supervise this will have good life insurance. I also hope that they will be able to convince people in a smoky environment to wait for the next lift rather than force their way in and overload it. I think I would prefer to carry my children and baby buggy out via the stairs. Anyway a rather interesting report, no doubt Aslefshrugged will be able to tell us if driver training is changed, but it will involve time and money to redesign the interface between driver and emergency alarm. I also note that these events only took place over a very short period of time, a member of staff on the platform may not have been able to make much difference.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 10:20:53 GMT
Are LU obliged to follow the recommendations in the report? Sort of. They have to consider the report, those involved in health & safety at LU have to take all of the recommendations into account when discharging their duties. However, it is only compulsory that LU comply with H&S legislation generally and that give appropriate consideration to the recommendations. They do not have to implement them, but they do have to report any measures they do take to the RAIB and give reasons to the RAIB for not implementing any additional measures, if they do not deem it fit to follow a recommendation: From footnote 11 (footnote to paragraph 134): "Those identified in the recommendations, have a general and ongoing obligation to comply with health and safety legislation and need to take these recommendations into account in ensuring the safety of their employees and others. Additionally, for the purposes of regulation 12(1) of the Railways (Accident Investigation and Reporting) Regulations 2005, these recommendations are addressed to the Office of Rail Regulation to enable it to carry out its duties under regulation 12(2) to: (a) ensure that recommendations are duly considered and where appropriate acted upon; and (b) report back to the RAIB details of any implementation measures, or the reasons why no implementation measures are being taken. Copies of both the regulations and the accompanying guidance notes (paragraphs 200 to 203) can be found on the RAIB’s website www.raib.gov.uk." The raib said it was a flashover, but there was also a dragging brake in one of the cars, the smell of which contributed to the panic Kind of. The T/Op and DTSM involved initially attributed the smell (and, indeed, earlier problems on the train) to a dragging brake, but there was only limited evidence of a dragging brake and it doesn't seem to have made much difference. Paragraphs 67-70: "At the time of the incident, the train operator and the DTSM attributed the smoke and the pungent smell to dragging brakes. This was because they had both experienced dragging brakes before and believed they recognised the smell. However, there is no direct evidence to substantiate a dragging brake as the source of the smoke and smell. The train’s data transmission system, which displays diagnostic information to the train operator, did not record a dragging brake fault on the journey either to or from Holland Park. The train was also found to be rolling freely when it was tested before taking it forward from Holland Park. The vibration problem, which the train operator had associated with a possible dragging brake, was later found to have been caused by wheels on car 1 that had worn out-of-round. However, it is possible that train 003 had an undetected dragging brake fault. When vehicles in the train were later uncoupled, maintenance records reportedly showed that a brake cylinder on car 6 was found to contain two bar of air pressure when it should have been empty (a brake cylinder is pressurised when there is a demand for braking, and emptied to release the brakes). If air pressure in a brake cylinder is not fully released it could cause a brake block to be partially applied and to drag on a wheel. It is not possible to say whether this condition was present at the time of the incident because a computer log, which would have recorded this information, was erased when the train was split. The maintenance work to correct the cause of the fault was not recorded in enough detail to make it clear whether the fault would be undetected by the train’s data transmission system. However, maintenance records do not show that the wheels or brake blocks on car 6 required any remedial action for the sort of damage that would be caused by a dragging brake. A smell from the brakes could also be explained by two heavy braking events in the minutes before the train arrived at Holland Park station. At 18:31 hrs, when the train was travelling between Queensway and Notting Hill Gate stations the emergency brakes were applied by the train’s automatic protection system because of an error detected in the speed monitoring system. The train was brought to a stand from 28.5 km/h in 14 seconds. At 18:33 hrs when the train was between Notting Hill Gate and Holland Park stations, the emergency brakes were again applied, this time for only a few seconds, to correct a train overspeed. Although there may have been some smell from the brakes, the primary cause o the smoke and burning smell was almost certainly a faulty traction motor. When the train was examined at the depot it was found that one of the traction motors at the trailing end of car 6 had suffered ‘flashover’ damage. This type of damage occurs when a motor suffers from an insulation breakdown and there is a subsequent electrical short circuit, known as a flashover. It is often accompanied by arcing and smoke from the breakdown and burning of insulation. The train is fitted with safety systems to ensure that the safety of passengers is not at risk from a motor flashover." I also note that these events only took place over a very short period of time, a member of staff on the platform may not have been able to make much difference. I'm really not sure about this one. For one thing, an MoS on the platform may have been able to prevent the train from leaving. The train should not have left Holland Park in the first place, it was supposed to be met by staff at Holland Park and taken out because of the smell reported earlier. However, that message seems never to have been passed on, so in that regard the MoS would not have made any difference as they would not have known that the train needed to be held, any more than the T/Op knew. The T/Op would normally be told and should have been. But anyway the MoS may have noticed something amiss in those few seconds before the doors closed when people started to leave car 6 because they could see smoke. More importantly, though, the MoS would have been in a position to (almost instantly) operate the butterfly cocks on any and all cars which required it effecting a quick and calm response and a controlled evacuation of the train, as is meant to happen. They would also have provided visual reassurance that something was being done. The absence of anyone seeming to take control and of any direction is what led people to panic. Some couldn't be sure anybody knew what was happening and they didn't know what to do. An MoS would have been able to take charge, calm people down and direct and effect an orderly evacuation.
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Post by tjw on Jul 29, 2014 16:22:06 GMT
I did say 'MAY' not...
If the member of staff on the platform had been standing by Car 6 they no doubt would have noticed the smoke and will have either held the train in the platform or used what ever method they have of stopping a train once it starts to depart. (I have never been passed on the LU rule book)
I note according to the report the train arr. 6.34 and was moving again c. 6.35, not very long to notice! The first set of doors were then opened just after 6.38. pretty quick really.
I also wonder what the procedure is for opening the butterfly on a train... and how long it takes!
I was many years ago passed on the BR rule book as a station foreman, on seeing the smoke my understanding would have be to stop the train first and before opening any doors make sure the train cannot re-start. This could be done by reaching up and turning the butterfly valve, but this could not be done until the emergency stop was acknowledged. Perhaps this could take 2 mins max.
I note all the doors were open before 6.39... less than 4 mins from the first emergency alarm activation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 17:02:17 GMT
I did say 'MAY' not... If the member of staff on the platform had been standing by Car 6 they no doubt would have noticed the smoke and will have either held the train in the platform or used what ever method they have of stopping a train once it starts to depart. (I have never been passed on the LU rule book) I note according to the report the train arr. 6.34 and was moving again c. 6.35, not very long to notice! The first set of doors were then opened just after 6.38. pretty quick really. I also wonder what the procedure is for opening the butterfly on a train... and how long it takes! I was many years ago passed on the BR rule book as a station foreman, on seeing the smoke my understanding would have be to stop the train first and before opening any doors make sure the train cannot re-start. This could be done by reaching up and turning the butterfly valve, but this could not be done until the emergency stop was acknowledged. Perhaps this could take 2 mins max. I note all the doors were open before 6.39... less than 4 mins from the first emergency alarm activation. I know you said 'may' - I was just disagreeing with you - I hope politely I agree that it was pretty quick - although obviously it would not have felt nearly quick enough to the people on the train, but I maintain that the presence of a staff member seeming to be doing something and possibly able to give instructions would have made it very unlikely that anyone would believe that they would need to climb out of the cars. To stop a train you can use the emergency stop plunger or wave your arms around - probably any members of staff can add other methods, but those are the two I know. Well, no LUL trains can depart without a pilot light, in other words - unless you've disabled the round train circuit manually - you cannot depart until all doors are proved closed and locked, so once you operate that butterfly cock, that train's going nowhere in a hurry. There may be additional rules and procedures for going by the book, but if you take a look at the video on hobbayne's original thread you can see the MoS operates the butterfly cock without seeming to go through any motions or procedures. Edit: It takes a handful of seconds for one set of double doors to open, but hardly any time at all really.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 19:20:44 GMT
It is good to know the cause. There were rumours of a brake block rubbing, rumours of a flashover and some rumours of both at the same time.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 6:51:24 GMT
tjw - I understand that "what to do when loads of handles are pulled down at once" is now included in ATOR but as my last one was not long after the incident I've still got that pleasure to look forward to. A helpful IOp who was riding in my cab on the way to the W&C showed me how it works.
The only things the TOp did wrong was not make a PA to the whole train, for some reason he thought that talkback could be heard all over the train rather than just the car with the handle down, and not carrying his handheld radio when he went back to investigate. I'll admit I've been guilty of that in the past but both he and I trained before the days of handhelds so it doesn't automatically spring to mind when dealing with an incident and I can imagine with multiple alarms going off it might easily be left behind.
The report mentions that the Super and the DSM had both complained about a lack of station staff, they should have had eight on duty, but it seems there was a staff shortage as not enough people volunteered to work RDs for Carnival. Most of the staff were busy at the station entrance and ticket hall on crowd control, trying to restrict the number of people coming in to avoid overcrowding, they could only spare one bod and they were on the other platform. If you don't have enough staff then there's not much you can do about it, you can't force them to work rest days.
In my opinion the big failures that seem to have been somewhat overshadowed were Wood Lane telephoning the DSM at Holland Park rather than calling the TOp on the radio and the DSM (who said they didn't remember the phone call) not sending anyone down or radioing the staff member on the platform.
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Post by tjw on Jul 30, 2014 8:18:03 GMT
I know you said 'may' - I was just disagreeing with you - I hope politely Thats o.k. , While I agree that a member of staff on the platform COULD have made a difference, and opened the doors in at least 1 car within say 1-2 mins rather than 3-4 min. I don't see this as a reason to have staff back on all platforms all of the time. I can think of quite a few delays that could impede the member of staff in such a situation, and not necessary improve overall safety. The number of staff detailed is always down to a cost benefit analysis, at the moment I think LUL has the right balance. I note with interest that staff are not easily found to volunteer for Carnival! I wonder why? I also wonder if we would have seen the same response by passengers if this had happened in the rush hour. Also many thanks aslefshrugged for your reply.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 9:39:42 GMT
I note with interest that staff are not easily found to volunteer for Carnival! I wonder why? The crowds can be very unpleasant. I'm sure it's a small minority, but apparently you tend to get a lot of abuse (even more than normal) and there tend to be a lot more assaults than would be normal. According to aslefshrugged himself there was an assault at Queensway last time round. I guess it can be a rough and difficult time to work. Once bitten, twice shy.
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