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Post by metrailway on Oct 2, 2014 20:02:38 GMT
It seems this proposal is serious and there are two newly set up companies proposing conversions - The Yorkshire Train Company Ltd and Vivarail Ltd. grahamhewett I believe a former colleague of yours at BR, Adrian Shooter, is a director of Vivarail Ltd. |
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metman
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Post by metman on Oct 2, 2014 21:01:06 GMT
It's difficult to believe that the cost of stripping out the cars, rebuilding to accommodate the engine and toilets, probable re-bogie-ing to carry the extra weight in the motor cars, re-cabling, installing retention tanks and piping for the loos, and refitting new seats, will save much, if anything, over completely new stock. Typically, much more than half of the cost of new stock is generated by just such things; the basic body shell and running gear is relatively cheap. Indeed, the D stock will be approaching 40! years old by the time the last one is withdrawn. I'd love to see them continue in service but it sounds like a waste of time. Now if that line was to be electrified on 3rd rail then I could see the lesser* expense of converting the trains could be worth it. Otherwise, why not a) order new DMUs b) electrify the line to OHLE as per the adjoining lines and use spare EMUs (315s?) c) cascade ex Thames DMUs to this line when Xrail opens. *at the huge cost of 3rd rail I expect c) is the most likely option if the Welsh lines don't mind...... |
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Post by domh245 on Oct 2, 2014 21:13:32 GMT
My understanding is that through a rather convoluted system, the thames turbos will make their way down towards the west country, with the sprinters there making their way up north. The 315s were originally earmarked for the Valley lines in south wales, but with the delays on the great-western electrification, it seems to have gone a bit quiet! As for new DMUs, there is an issue in that new build DMUS have to be compliant with some new EU regulations, which essentially means that the engine wouldn't be able to go underfloor without a very high floor, or you could spend lots of money on a new engine which wouldn't see all that much use outside of the few trains in the UK on which it would be used!
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Post by brigham on Oct 2, 2014 21:43:56 GMT
The entire concept is economically non-viable under present-day conditions. Continued discussion highlights the existence of a prolonged 'silly season' in the Railway press.
Outside of a National Emergency, the most that could be done with surplus rakes of this LT-specific stock would be to form it into 'control sets', for use with specially adapted locomotives, or possibly with a purpose-built Driving Generator Van.
In either case, the lack of lavatory facilities would be...
(Wait for it...)
... a major Inconvenience!
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Post by grahamhewett on Oct 3, 2014 8:09:12 GMT
metrailway - so that's what Adrian is doing in retirement! [The existence of a couple of companies doesn't signify - the Channel Tunnel Company existed for many many years before the actual thing was built - by an entirely different organisation...]
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2014 14:05:48 GMT
Interesting. There is going to be a lot of spare DMUs kicking around in a few years when the Thameslink and Crossrail fleets are running. Well a while back the previous government proposed that 202 new diesel carriages were required in CP4 due to rising passenger numbers. They issued the document that comes before an official ITT (I can't remember the right name) which showed: 8 x 4 car DMUs for FGW. 10 x 4 car DMus for TPE. 130 DMU carriages in mixed formation trains for Northern. Then they changed their minds and proposed electrification instead. TPE got 10 x 4 car 350s (although will now lose their 170/3s which wasn't part of the deal) so that leaves 162 cascaded electric carriages required to add the extra capacity which should have been in place by April this year (getting on for half of the 319s.) With the 319s not being in mixed formations it'll be more rather than less. Then they'll be extra capacity needed as there has been further growth and a lot of it is on routes not being electrified. Hence, why Chiltern craftly took advantage of the franchising mess and signed a lease for trains which the next TPE franchise will still require. The 153s may be reformed to 155s (due to high costs involved in making single carriage trains accessible) so again with less flexible formations some extra carriages may be needed. Then there are around 140 Pacers to replace (10 are 3 car, the rest are 2 car.) The number of extra carriages released by Thameslink and Crossrail is nowhere near enough to provide the extra capacity required, as well as allow for withdrawal of older stock. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2014 15:22:05 GMT
Only problem is that the engines could not be new as none meet new emission standards. Single doors would not help on a busy line. Very good point, but the doors are pretty big. I would say they are almost the size of the double doors on class321. |
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Post by crusty54 on Nov 24, 2014 10:52:38 GMT
Roger Ford has stated that Vivarail has bought all 150 driving cars and enough other vehicles to make into 75 trains.
The engines will go under the floor and generate 750v DC to make the existing motors work.
First unit to be ready in May 2015.
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a60
I will make the 8100 Class DART my new A Stock.
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Post by a60 on Nov 24, 2014 12:15:59 GMT
May 2015? Are you sure? It's just that we're in November 2014 and it doesn't look like we will be bidding any of them farewell for some time.
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Post by crusty54 on Nov 24, 2014 12:23:54 GMT
May 2015? Are you sure? It's just that we're in November 2014 and it doesn't look like we will be bidding any of them farewell for some time. Clearly states a demonstrator will be ready for the end of May. Two Ford Diesel engines to be fitted to each driving car and a top speed of 60mph. |
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a60
I will make the 8100 Class DART my new A Stock.
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Post by a60 on Nov 24, 2014 12:34:13 GMT
Okay well I wish these guys at viva rail all the luck in the world, props to TfL for facilitating this
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Post by John Tuthill on Nov 24, 2014 15:30:37 GMT
Okay well I wish these guys at viva rail all the luck in the world, props to TfL for facilitating this A return to BRs 114s? |
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Post by crusty54 on Nov 24, 2014 16:27:17 GMT
By far the most interesting feature is the underfloor diesel power pack. Each DM car will have two fully-enclosed modules each housing a 200hp automotive diesel engine driving an alternator and compressor
Also housed in the module will be the cooler group, battery and compressor, driven from the engine via the alternator shaft. Each module will power the two traction motors on a bogie.
Power from the alternator will be fed to an inverter giving a 750V dc output. The DM’s existing camshaft control equipment will be replaced by a new solid-state DC chopper system, designed and supplied by Strukton Rail of The Netherlands.
Strukton is descended from Holec Traction which supplied the three-phase drives for the Hunslet TPL Class 323 EMU. The chopper will supply the existing Brush LT118 traction motors. Rheostatic braking will be retained.
According to Vivarail D78 stock already has formal approved for operation over Network Rail. The conversion to D-train, will follow the official guidance for ‘Operating non-Mainline Vehicles on Mainline Infrastructure’ which was issued this year. Only modifications made to the D78 will need to comply with the relevant Technical Standards for Interoperability, the Notified National Technical Rules, and project entry under the EC Common Safety Method for Risk Evaluation and Assessment.
Performance
Maximum speed will remain at 60mile/h. Provisional run-time simulations for the Huddersfield-Sheffield route, have indicated savings in sectional running times compared with Class 142 and 150 DMUs.
From Roger Ford's ePreview
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 18:17:37 GMT
Any links?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 18:27:24 GMT
Question : if each car has a motor rated at 200 bhp, how will performance be so much better than say a class 150? |
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Post by domh245 on Nov 24, 2014 18:50:55 GMT
ezezine.com/ezine/archives/759/759-2014.11.24.04.00.archive.html Under the title: "Vivarail launches the D-Train" As for performance, it's a bit of an odd one, as each driving car will have about 400hp of power being generated, and this will then be driving the motors, with a new control system. I suspect that performance gains will be from the use of (hopefully) more efficient transmission from engine to wheels, and in the fact that it will accelerate a fair bit quicker than a 150, before levelling out at 60mph, which would be about as quick as the train gets on the services they intend on running. I'd be interested to know what the rating of the LT118 motor is, so we can see how much of a surplus/deficit there will be per car.
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Antje
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Post by Antje on Nov 24, 2014 19:06:03 GMT
This report appears to contradict a previous plan to use a fraction of the fleet as RATs, so I am lost as the weather hampers my photo project.
In either case, the Railbuses (142/143/etc) have to go because RVAR says so, but D78's presence could turn any line into Metro standard, depending on the service pattern.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 19:10:00 GMT
Will be very interesting to see the results.
I presume of course that the London Transport Museum will preserve at least one model?
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Post by domh245 on Nov 24, 2014 19:19:43 GMT
There are 40 cars that are part of a double ended unit, and in addition to the 130 single ended DMs, that leaves 20 left out from the 150 purchased. This would allow for 10 units to remain, so we may end up with the case of 7520-7539 being retained in their respective trains, whilst all of the other cars are taken for conversion. The fact that they have acquired "150 D78 Driving Motor cars plus enough vehicles to form 75 units" suggests that they will be running the trains in 3 or 4 car formations, so I am expecting that a number of cars will be either heading off for scrap, or conversion to sandite cars.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 19:57:00 GMT
From what I hear, the RAT project is still planned.
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metman
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Post by metman on Nov 24, 2014 20:56:37 GMT
Interesting stuff. I would like to know how many cars in each train there will be? 4 cars? Can they run as an 8 car train. I assume that all the UNDM will be scrapped.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 24, 2014 21:38:09 GMT
Question : if each car has a motor rated at 200 bhp, how will performance be so much better than say a class 150? Because it will have two. It is not clear whether the 150 other vehicles (to make the reported total of 300) will also be motored (are they UNDMs or trailers?) A class 150 has 286hp installed per car. |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Nov 24, 2014 23:35:34 GMT
What a surprise, yet again the north gets cast-off rolling stock from the south, which gets brand new stuff.
Oh, and the 2nd-hand Turbostars we got the other year; well they're heading south too.
Once the northern electrification actually happens[*]. HMWBO has a plan that could actually increase capacity up here by keeping the cascaded London things, and fitting pantographs to the existing rolling stock creating:
Da da DAH:
It probably won't happen though, that would involve actually spending money on us plebs up here.
Yours,
#GrumpyNortherner
[*]I'm only thirty, but twice now I've experience brand new electrification with cast-off units/
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 0:03:32 GMT
ezezine.com/ezine/archives/759/759-2014.11.24.04.00.archive.html Under the title: "Vivarail launches the D-Train" As for performance, it's a bit of an odd one, as each driving car will have about 400hp of power being generated, and this will then be driving the motors, with a new control system. I suspect that performance gains will be from the use of (hopefully) more efficient transmission from engine to wheels, and in the fact that it will accelerate a fair bit quicker than a 150, before levelling out at 60mph, which would be about as quick as the train gets on the services they intend on running. I'd be interested to know what the rating of the LT118 motor is, so we can see how much of a surplus/deficit there will be per car. Here's a YouTube clip you might find interesting. I personally think acceleration is only okay up to 30 mph but terrible after that and this is obviously on electric power they were designed for rather than diesel power. Of course I'd like these units saved but something like the performance of the tyne & wear metro vehicles is needed in my opinion. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 25, 2014 10:23:23 GMT
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Post by brigham on Nov 25, 2014 11:07:33 GMT
Each Driving Motor has 2x 200hp diesel gen. sets, which is 400hp each, or 800hp per train. Should be more than adequate for 60mph.
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Post by crusty54 on Nov 25, 2014 11:26:23 GMT
Each Driving Motor has 2x 200hp diesel gen. sets, which is 400hp each, or 800hp per train. Should be more than adequate for 60mph. The diesels are to generate power to the existing electric motors so they should perform as they do now. |
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Post by brigham on Nov 25, 2014 13:17:46 GMT
The acceleration on Tyneside Metro stock is staggering, but I think the balancing speed is only around 50mph, which might be a bit low for main-line work.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 25, 2014 14:22:12 GMT
The diesels are to generate power to the existing electric motors so they should perform as they do now. There is a difference in the power train though - a straight electric can draw full power from the supply instantaneously: a diesel-powered generator will take a few seconds to spool up. In a drag race, a straight electric (suitably ballasted to make things fair) should beat a diesel-electric with identical traction motors. (I understand this is the reason the East Sussex Line diesels, which were essentially very noisy 2HAPs, didn't call at Clapham Junction in the peaks - that way the end to end Croydon- Victoria time matched everything else) A D stock DM weighs 27 tonnes and a trailer weighs 18 tonnes: total 45 tonnes. A class 150 car weighs 35 tonnes, at 286hp that's about 8hp/tonne. To match that power to weight ratio the modifications to each DM, including the two power packs, would have to weigh less than 5 tonnes. |
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Post by Dmitri on Nov 25, 2014 16:18:37 GMT
diesel-powered generator will take a few seconds to spool up Piston engines, even big aircraft ones, can go from idle to full throttle very quickly  . |
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