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Post by wimblephil on Jun 19, 2014 19:05:23 GMT
Today I was travelling on an S-Stock, and upon arrival at West Brompton the driver made an announcement. I missed the first half, but the second was "...so please be aware that the doors in the first and last cars are unlikely to open at this station". Sitting in the first car, I can confirm that indeed no doors did open.
I've also been on several services where the doors do not open for a few moments (it feels like a lifetime, but is probably no more than 10-20secs). Particularly at East Putney this has occured a fair few times whilst I've been on board! Sometimes an announcment is made, sometimes not, but I've never heard a reason explained.
I'm just wondering what causes these issues to the doors opening?
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Post by domh245 on Jun 19, 2014 19:13:51 GMT
That first instance sounds like the driver missed the stopping mark, or for whatever other reason couldn't get the doors to release properly, so they had to use the emergency door release, which will open most of the doors, but cuts out something like the first & last 3 doors to ensure that even at stations where SDO is in operation, no doors that are off the platform aren't opened. I've also noticed sometimes that doors won't open, and the driver will pull forward a bit to get the doors open, but the doesn't stop people mashing the door buttons! What I have noticed is that sometimes (especially at Wimbledon) that the doors don't open together - some doors will start to open before others, which as a passenger is quite worrying. Even though it is a very short delay, you want to get out ASAP - the gates to the platform can get very busy.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2014 19:17:15 GMT
It would be naughty of me to speculate, but I'm with domh on this one, I had something similar happen at farringdon westbound not too long ago. Very minor overrun. It happens sometimes, no big deal.
The doors seem to open and close at different times to each other quite regularly - and with the S stock's sound effects it can be quite annoying as all of the beeps are out of sync with each other. Artifact of the design I think.
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Post by wimblephil on Jun 19, 2014 19:20:59 GMT
Yeah, I've noticed that too, the lack or unison when the doors open at times. You would expect (perhaps unrealistically) it to be milisecond perfect!
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 19, 2014 19:50:32 GMT
domh245 has explained the situation with S7 Stock stopping very accurately!
The software is slow to respond sometimes, causing the blue 'doors closed' indication to illuminate in the cab but the orange outside door lights, white curtesy door lights and TCMS all showing that doors are 'open'.
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Post by Hassaan on Jun 19, 2014 19:55:00 GMT
This millisecond difference between doors releasing is something I've noticed as well, I think it would be surprising if they ever opened at exactly the same time!
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Post by wimblephil on Jun 19, 2014 20:18:20 GMT
It's interesting to hear that the stopping marks can cause such inconvenince! I didn't realise they played such and active role; thought they were more just a mere guide then anything - much to learn!
I'm also curious as to whether there's any procedure for departing, once the doors have automatically closed after the 45seconds, particularly an issue at terminus stations. Most people don't realise that just because the doors are closing, it doesn't mean the train is departing and many do a sprint dash only to find the train still sits there for a while!
Most drivers I've noticed will open all doors, before closing them again, as a signal that the train is about to depart (at least I think that's why they do it!?) This isn't always the case though, as some just close the doors that are open (if any) and pull off.
It wasn't until the other day that I discovered there is actually a 'this train is ready to depart' announcment, when it was used by a driver whom I believe was in training, or at least being shadowed by another. (He also came out the cab before departing Wimbledon, and held down a button of a door on the inactive side of the train, which I found rather intruiging!?). I've never heard it used since, and I have departed Wimbledon on an S-Stock many, many times since!
Surley this announcment should be used at every terminus station, as a clear sign the train is about to go? I personally don't find it such a problem at Wimbledon, as I just look at the signal - but as you might expect, the average Joe does not!
One time there was a man walking along side the train up the platform, looking to board near the front, when the train just locked the doors and pulled off with no warning what-so-ever that it was about to depart, leaving him behind. This I thought was not on, and really quite bad practice!
(Sorry if I've rambled a bit; I try to be concise but don't always achieve!!)
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Post by Tomcakes on Jun 19, 2014 20:27:59 GMT
Anecdotally I find *most* drivers seem to make an announcement prior to leaving a terminus, either in person or using the DVA. Aside from anything else, there are often litter pickers on the train who would otherwise find themselves overcarried!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2014 20:28:22 GMT
The holding the button on the inactive side closes the active doors but I think that has to be turned on from the cab.
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Post by wimblephil on Jun 19, 2014 20:30:25 GMT
The holding the button on the inactive side closes the active doors but I think that has to be turned on from the cab. Ah, OK. Curiosity satisfied. Thanks! Some sort of safety/back-up feature?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2014 20:30:57 GMT
The stopping marks are an aid to the driver - either the boards with green target areas you see on the platform, or a stopping diamond at track level. However, CSDE (Correct Side Door Enable) is emphatically not just a guide. There's a wealth of information over on the main site: here. Essentially, though, there is a loop on the platform (N.B.: there was a thread on here which talked about a slightly different system being employed for the new S stock, I don't know too much about that, but it'll have broadly the same purpose) which is to be lined up with a receiver on the train. If you miss the stopping mark the two won't line up. The purpose of this is (a) to ensure that the doors do not open on the wrong side - a considerable potential danger with One Person Operation and (b) that the doors can't be opened if the train misses the stopping mark. This is because there's a chance that some doors may be outside the platform limits. As a result, there is a set of procedures (laid out on the link) for opening the doors if the train misses the stopping mark, but all doors are within the platform limits and so the doors can be opened safely. Some trains have front door cut out. On the Northern FDCO boards were supplied at every station (they're probably still there, but things get complicated with TBTC). The 95s had a button for cutting out the front doors which could be used if the train stopped before the FDCO limit but beyond the normal stopping mark and after the board indicating that FDCO was to be used. and then all other doors could still be opened safely. With the S stock it's trivial to cut out a whole car's worth of doors, so the margin for error is fairly generous, although I suspect there would be a problem if the train came to a halt beyond the platform headwall so that the driver could not get out onto the platform. If you have a substantial overshoot or there is no SDO (selective door operation) or FDCO then you either continue onto the next station or you can set back, where you drive the train back into the platform from the back. There was a bit of a fuss - the details of which I can't remember - when there was talk of changing the limit for setting back from half a car overrun to one car overrun for the olympics (to keep delays to an absolute minimum). It's always good etiquette to make an automated or manual announcement before departing a terminus or after a significant dwell, but as you can imagine, not everyone remembers all the time. This isn't always - I think - a case of poor performance on the driver's part. Apart from the obvious frustration of endless LIS broadcasts and constantly being expected to make announcements if the train is stationary for more than 30 s (regardless of whether the driver has any information) which can diminish one's enthusiasm for the PA I'm sure, if there's service disruption, I wouldn't be surprised if drivers got very little notice of when they'd be going and it's easy to understand why, at the end of a long shift, or with the pressure of delays mounting up, some people might close up and go in a hurry.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2014 20:47:07 GMT
The holding the button on the inactive side closes the active doors but I think that has to be turned on from the cab. Ah, OK. Curiosity satisfied. Thanks! Some sort of safety/back-up feature? It's used when de-training, the driver walks to the back of the train making sure each car is empty, as he gets to the end of each car he closes the door of that car. I'm only guessing that it has to be turn on from the cab because when the train is in the station somebody could be leaning on the button and the door would close. I'm not sure why the drive did it when you were at Wimbledon.
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Post by wimblephil on Jun 19, 2014 20:51:47 GMT
Ah, OK. Curiosity satisfied. Thanks! Some sort of safety/back-up feature? It's used when de-training, the driver walks to the back of the train making sure each car is empty, as he gets to the end of each car he closes the door of that car. I'm only guessing that it has to be turn on from the cab because when the train is in the station somebody could be leaning on the button and the door would close. I'm not sure why the drive did it when you were at Wimbledon. Ah, cool. That makes sense! Like I say, I think he was potentially in training, and so perhaps was just being shown a lot of things? The whole journey felt a bit more 'by the book' so to speak, and there were a lot more announcements than one would generally hear on an average journey!
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Post by wimblephil on Jun 19, 2014 20:55:50 GMT
Thanks for the info tut. Very intersting to read. And good point about needing to think it from the Driver's view every now and then when all is not quite perfect - we are all human after all!
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Post by domh245 on Jun 19, 2014 21:03:07 GMT
Out of interest though, would a T/Op at 0800 be at the start or the end of their duty, because I have been on a number of S7s now that early where the driver has just shut the remaining doors and headed off. And whilst I'm thinking about it, how loud are the PAs on the S7s from outside - loud enough for a passenger walking down alongside the train to hear it through closed doors, with the nearest open one at the other end of the train?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2014 21:06:03 GMT
I should of course add that the CSDE loop can be fairly long, depending on the available over-run at the station and the train in question. So, when I say miss the stopping mark, you have to miss the "perfect" position by a fair bit at some stations, at other stations, e.g. termini with the buffer stops at the end and the low entry speeds, you don't get as much room. But, yes, for "miss the stopping mark" understand that you'd have to overrun the mark within the allowable tolerances (which the boards act as a guide to). There won't necessarily be a "perfect" point, but an area in which you can stop the train and safely open the doors, which will depend on stock and location.
Obviously it's worth pointing out that CSDE comes into play in the case of underruns as well. These aren't as big an issue, you just crawl forward, but CSDE obviously prevents doors from being opened if you underrun too, so that - in all cases - doors aren't opened in unsafe places, e.g. when they're still within the tunnel, or where the platform is very very narrow for historical or other reasons.
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Post by wimblephil on Jun 19, 2014 21:10:44 GMT
And whilst I'm thinking about it, how loud are the PAs on the S7s from outside - loud enough for a passenger walking down alongside the train to hear it through closed doors, with the nearest open one at the other end of the train? That makes for an interesting point!!
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 19, 2014 21:35:18 GMT
Out of interest though, would a T/Op at 0800 be at the start or the end of their duty, because I have been on a number of S7s now that early where the driver has just shut the remaining doors and headed off. There are still night drivers booking off at 0800 and early turns can still book-on up to 11.59.
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Post by wimblephil on Jul 25, 2014 8:07:22 GMT
Another question...!
I was on an S-Stock yesterday and on the approach to East Putney the driver announced "please be aware there could be a short delay of about 10-20seconds before the doors will open at East Putney, whilst I open them manually".
I'm just wondering what exactly that means, and why such an instance would occur?
(Ironically, the doors opened immediately upon arrival!!)
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Post by superteacher on Jul 25, 2014 8:47:25 GMT
Possible CSDE issue?
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Post by fish7373 on Jul 25, 2014 10:24:05 GMT
Can be speed sensing FISH7373
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Post by wimblephil on Jul 25, 2014 18:15:47 GMT
Can be speed sensing FISH7373 Sorry, what do these mean!?
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Post by wimblephil on Jul 25, 2014 18:29:58 GMT
I've just seen a sign at Putney Bridge telling Train Ops that the 'CSDE is NOT working at East Putney', so I guess that solves that mystery - I just don't understand what it means...!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 18:39:16 GMT
Well, do you remember what we said earlier about CSDE (Correct Side Door Enable)? It makes sure that the doors can only be opened on the correct side and only if the train has stopped in the correct position (within a defined limit of tolerance). Read more on this link I referenced above. Well, the fact that the CSDE equipment is not working would mean that the doors would have to be opened manually by going through the procedure detailed in the link (open the cab door, foot on the platform, open the doors using the buttons on the rear bulkhead (there may be some modifications for S stock, I know nothing about CSDE and S stock). As you can imagine, this will generally take a little bit longer than normal. Why the doors opened instantly after all in your case I cannot tell you. Perhaps the CSDE worked fine when the T/Op tried?
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Post by domh245 on Jul 25, 2014 18:45:42 GMT
I'm fairly sure that the S stock don't use the traditional CSDE equipment, instead using those little track mounted grey boxes, which might have been faulty, meaning that the T/Op had to ensure the the train was correctly berthed before using the emergency open, but if he had to resort to that, I would hope that they also talked about the front and rear doors not opening. Perhaps the T/Op forgot that the S stock use a different system, but I severely doubt that would be the case
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 19:04:04 GMT
I'm fairly sure that the S stock don't use the traditional CSDE equipment, instead using those little track mounted grey boxes That's what I've heard too, but I reckon it comes to more or less the same thing as far as the answers to wimblephil's questions are concerned. I just wondered whether the intricacies of CSDE (or equivalent (I think I've heard the acronym 'PAC' mentioned somewhere - is that what the boxes are?)) override and the various procedures would be different.
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Post by wimblephil on Jul 25, 2014 19:17:51 GMT
Ahh, of course. Thanks Tut. Sorry, I didn't fully absorb/remember that information last time - I should have re-read the thread before posting - my bad!
I think I've understood now though, so it's cleared up my curiosity!
Incidently, I came back on a D-Stock tonight, and that did indeed take a few before moments for the doors opened.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 19:20:12 GMT
Ahh, of course. Thanks Tut. Sorry, I didn't fully absorb/remember that information last time - I should have re-read the thread before posting - my bad! I think I've understood now though, so it's cleared up my curiosity! Incidently, I came back on a D-Stock tonight, and that did indeed take a few before moments for the doors opened. Not at all, just didn't want to bore everybody by saying the same thing again so I thought I'd try and jog your memory As we've been saying there are some differences with the S stock, it'd be worth waiting for more info, but I'm pretty sure the essentials of the problem, the solutions and the T/Ops announcements are all there
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Post by domh245 on Jul 25, 2014 19:30:46 GMT
I'm fairly sure that the S stock don't use the traditional CSDE equipment, instead using those little track mounted grey boxes That's what I've heard too, but I reckon it comes to more or less the same thing as far as the answers to wimblephil's questions are concerned. I just wondered whether the intricacies of CSDE (or equivalent (I think I've heard the acronym 'PAC' mentioned somewhere - is that what the boxes are?)) override and the various procedures would be different. I've wondered that as well. I would guess that it would be similar to some extent, ensuring that the train is properly berthed, and ensuring you open the door on the correct side &c. It would appear after some further research that CSDE is still used on the S stock, but I'm not sure if it is the same system as used on the traditional stock, or a new implementation of the system. It may be that there is conventional CSDE as a failsafe, but I don't know.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 19:40:26 GMT
Of course the big thing with S stock is SDO. Based on a minor platform overrun I experienced at Farringdon, after which all doors on the front car were cut out, I imagine that a procedure has to be implemented to manually cut-out doors where necessary, although it seems to cut out doors on a car-by-car basis, rather than door-by-door, since only about half a door was past the barriers at the end of the platform.
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