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Post by orienteer on Mar 3, 2014 22:17:24 GMT
Much of the Met line track has been updated with concrete sleepers, now all with flat-bottomed rail.
At various points I notice groups of the old wooden sleepers have been left in place, from 3 or 4 up to about 10.
Can anyone explain why this is so?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2014 23:03:19 GMT
Could be over places like bridges and structures where wooden sleepers are lighter
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Post by Harsig on Mar 4, 2014 8:30:18 GMT
It's not just weight that may be a factor. The length of the sleeper could be the deciding factor. There will be places where a full length sleeper cannot be installed because of some other structure at track level, e.g. an access chamber to the track drainage system. In such circumstances it is far easier to shorten a wooden sleeper than a concrete one. Indeed the latter may well be impossible or not permitted. Often several short sleepers will be required, typically the three to ten sleepers you refer to.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 18:01:12 GMT
Also anywhere with trainstops fitted have to have wooden sleepers and more also around points
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 4, 2014 19:04:59 GMT
Also anywhere with trainstops fitted have to have wooden sleepers and more also around points What would be the reason for this requirement?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2014 19:09:53 GMT
Old fixings its abit difficult to make holes into a concrete sleeper. Each one is different believe it or not especially on curves its all done on site and with a manual drill nothing petrol or electric driven
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Post by John Tuthill on Mar 4, 2014 19:17:38 GMT
Also anywhere with trainstops fitted have to have wooden sleepers and more also around points What would be the reason for this requirement? Could it be to re-rail something? Saw a piece on You tube where 'Britannia 70000' had its leading bogie derailed, and they used blocks of wood to re-rail it
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Post by orienteer on Mar 4, 2014 20:33:36 GMT
Thanks for the explanations, I'll have to look a bit more closely!
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 4, 2014 22:02:24 GMT
I understand the use of wooden blocks when re-railing derailed vehicles, but this is about the sleepers used to support the rails.
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paulsw2
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Post by paulsw2 on Mar 5, 2014 4:50:29 GMT
It may be to allow the track to expand in heat and contract in cold wooden sleepers have a little flexibility compared to solid concrete.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 21:05:14 GMT
Would wood not absorb vibrations better?
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 5, 2014 23:26:37 GMT
I commonly see wooden sleepers used at expansion joints where a section of bullhead rail is bolted flat to a set of sleepers to hold them together.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2014 20:48:24 GMT
Its because Bullhead rail has to have chairs fitted to the sleeper where as the concrete sleeper already has the chair/seat for the rail. They just install a rubber pad under the Flatbottom rail then insert the pandrol clip.
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Post by railtechnician on Mar 7, 2014 2:21:14 GMT
Its because Bullhead rail has to have chairs fitted to the sleeper where as the concrete sleeper already has the chair/seat for the rail. They just install a rubber pad under the Flatbottom rail then insert the pandrol clip. You missed the gist here methinks! The topic was about wooden sleepers at flat bottom rail expansion joints. This is a cheap version of the F/B expansion joint where the wooden sleepers support the expansion joints and are tied together with two short lengths of B/H rail laid on their side to keep the road together end to end. F/B expansion joints laid on the usual pads on standard concrete sleepers will not perform as required unless the sleepers are tied together i.e. in severely cold weather the track would simply shrink away from the expansion joints with nothing to stop the contraction. It is possible to see expansion joints on concrete sleepers outside LUL but the sleepers are made with holes in the four foot to take ties. There are also different types of expansion joints more commonly known as expansion switches which look similar to stock and switch rail pairs and which are mounted in a form of F/B slide chair, this being the expensive type as it requires more components and usually seen on high speed rail lines.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Mar 7, 2014 8:27:40 GMT
So in short it seems, wooden sleepers are used where there is a need to drill holed in them, eg to attach a trainstop.
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Post by railtechnician on Mar 7, 2014 16:25:24 GMT
So in short it seems, wooden sleepers are used where there is a need to drill holed in them, eg to attach a trainstop. I don't "know" that that is the reason why but I do know that it appears to be the case and is expedient. Perhaps cost is a factor but wooden sleepers are readily available and are flexible in that all sorts of equipment can be mounted to them as they are easily drilled with a P-Way auger. On the other hand concrete sleepers have to be manufactured with the holes pre-drilled for specific applications. Wooden sleepers are tried and tested and have stood the test of time for around 200 years from the earliest forms of railway seeing off other types made of metals long ago. Concrete itself is not new but I suspect it is cheaper to manufacture sleepers from it than to wait years for Australian Jarrah to grow. Of course traditional Jarrah sleepers are rarer these days and modern sleepers are made from pine which is not so long lasting being a softer wood and quicker to rot despite the preservative. Concrete sleepers and long welded flat bottom rail give a smoother ride and better facilitate ballast packing by machine and simple track is quicker to lay but I suspect there are more complications than not laying points and crossings on concrete sleepers even if they are made specifically for the purpose so wooden sleepers will continue to be used in such areas for cheapness and efficiency of installation.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Mar 8, 2014 1:12:32 GMT
Pretty much, yes. There are suggestions of 'adaptor plates' to mount trainstops to concrete sleepers but I don't think it'll happen for a while.
Incidentally, we are now using concrete bearers (sleepers) for points and crossings.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2014 20:21:22 GMT
It would also be due to the fact that very rarely are two sets of points the same making it so much easier to use wood that a custom concrete sleeper for each part of the point. Also the shape of a concrete sleeper is sort of U shaped, rather than completely flat.
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Post by plasmid on Apr 24, 2014 14:59:08 GMT
At one station on the Central line it's noticeable that they've installed new flat-bottom rail on new wooden sleepers down the entire station. I can't recall which station as it was a few months ago.
For deep level tube lines such as the central I can only assume they done this to get the track replaced quickly as concrete sleepers take longer to install.
Thoughts?
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