Swings and roundabouts

Perhaps it might be an idea when Edgware Road closes and Hammersmith re-opens to have both Hammersmith and Barking H&C men trained to do Wimblewares with Barking also becoming a H&C only depot. Perhaps Parsons Green should only stable 'C' stock too. This would let Earl's Court (which by-the-way should be moved to Ealing Common depot or Acton Town) and Upminster men only work 'D' stock trains.

We don't want either Edgware road or Hammersmith to take over the wimblewares. They cant be trusted to run to time and they are never at their pick ups at the correct time. We currently run fairly reliably through Earls Court with no disruptions occuring. That will certainly be blown out of the water if they took them over. Not only that, I like driving 2 stocks for the variety. I'd also miss the route too much.

Are you sure them fags you've been smoking are made of the right stuff ?? ;D ;D

Maybe some C stock brake dust has got mixed onto his Tabbaco. ;D

Would it be too much expense/trouble to reverse the bay road at Tower Hill from E-W to W-E so that Hammersmith trains reverse at Tower Hill ,instead of Aldgate,and Ealing - Tower Hill service reverses at Mansion House.Obviously this would be after the new stock comes in.

That was Mansion House.
The main problem with using Mansion House as a regular turning point is that it removes an opportunity to turn a late running Eastbound Tower Hill train (to put it back on time). It therefore goes that if an Eastbound Mansion House train is running late, there's nowhere to turn it back on time. Also Tower Hill is preferred as the Tower of London is a bit of a thing with the tourists apparently.

Is this thread still going on. Thought I quashed it days ago with the "nothing's going to change" slant.

To skim over a couple of the points I noticed.

Those upsatirs are not the ones to notice which particular trains are losing time. It becomes very obvious very quickly, especially when you can see a lot of railway. That old big picture thing again.

Circles did indeed previously have much less time to go round, and they made it. However, over the years, timetabl changes, speed restrictions and the like make it virtually impossible for the keenest driver to do it in under 50 minutes. I have witnessed a 42 minute trip, but that was a few years ago, and on a weekend.

When the District have a shutdown, and we are correctly informed of it (which is rare) the Met will normally take it upon themselves to suspend - that way we can keep track of where our trains are and not lose them for hours on end. Barking reliefs generally run through, and we consign the train to the "lost" pile.

If you're going to re-model Tower Hill and reverse the H&C there, you are not reducing MrQ8's original vision to get rid of conflicting moves over Minories Junction.

Running the H&C round most of the top half of the Circle, and then as far as Tower Hill, you may just as well reduce any conflict at Tower Hill bay (with late trains) by running the service all the way round the Circle! After all the Circle, when running as booked, doesn't need to occupy a bay road, and therefore does not occupy space required for other services.

Ever feel yourself going round in Circles? (excuse the pun) ;D

Now I find that interesting TOK. Was it a tenative plan or just an idea someone had? I would hazard a guess that such a thing would relieve the junction somewhat but at the risk of moving the conflicts further west.

Gloucester Road was a four track area - so plenty of room. There is no extra space at Tower Hill for extra tracks.

Also the only benefit to your plan TOK, is no impedence to inner rail circles. So 6-8 trains an hour sail through while the entire district see's no change.

Nah, can't see it coming off

There will always be conflicts as long as different lines share the same tracks - it's a railway thing.

The problem is that the circle services represent only 25-33% of services in each direction. So in the case of Gloucester Road where westbound circles cross the eastbound District the circle is crossing the path of up to 75 % of the service going the other way. At Minories Junction where it would be eastbound Districts crossing the path of westbound Circles, the District is only crossing the path of 25 - 33 % of the service going the other way. It therefore follows that for a westbound Circle arriving at Gloucester Road there is only one chance in four of there being a path available across the junction immediately and thus the likelihood is that the train will be held. In the case of the eastbound District arriving at Minories Junction there are two chances in three that there will be a path available across the junction immediately so it is less likely that the train will be held.

From this we can see that the justification for providing the facility to hold an eastbound District clear of the path of an Inner Circle, while waiting a path across Minories Junction is much less than the justification for the existing facility for Outer Rail Circles at Gloucester Road.

Incidentally this is a simple analysis which ignores the effects of Aldgate East Junction. i.e. It is quite common for EB Districts to be held at Minories Junction, not because of an Outer Rail Circle crossing the junction, but because the preceding EB District is waiting a path through Aldgate East Junction.

The timetable is written roughly like this:

Eastbound District and Westbound District pass minories at more or less the same time

Inner Circle and Outer Circle use minories at more or less the same time.

Eastbound H&C and Westbound H&C are timed to use the North Curve at more or less the same time.

Met Mains are timed to slot between H&C.

Now, there may only be a minute, maybe two, between differing paths, but the paths exist. To timetable for unforseen events, and to plan for most trains to arrive in the area a few seconds late would mean cutting frequency in half on all services.

With a right-time, no-incident, consistent train and driver performance, dream of a railway environment, everything would work on the current timetable and layout.

But without losing services or spending huge amounts of money, you simply cannot have your cake and eat it. If the money was around then surely there are many more worthwhile causes.

No, not at all. There are very few services timed to pass at precisely the same time. But before you jump up and down and shout "You see that's part of the problem!" I will assure you that the timings are normally no more than 30 seconds to a minute apart.

If you were able to run a simple simulator (anyone )to demonstrate the way Aldgate should work when everything is on time, and then run it again with the realism setting on "high" you will soon see that the problems are not really layout related.

Being halfway along the District and more or less halfway along the H&C (when running to Barking) it has to suffer any delay that occurs from either direction. The junction really gets it with both barrels.

The answer, as I have hinted, is to find a way to make sure every single train will arrive in the area bang on time. If you know a way and it does not inconvenience the passengers (or staff), you could become very rich very quickly.