mrfs42
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Big Hair Day
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 8, 2014 1:17:27 GMT
It was for a parcels/goods lift. I think the easiest way of seeing what I briefly saw at Acton in thousands of other drawings is by looking in the House of Lords Records Office. There should be copies of deposited plans for works around the Canonbury Curve area, and in one of those threre is a goods shaft drawn on the surface. The Acton copies are uncatalogued loose photocopies and I could tell you where they were about three years ago to within about a yard or so. I don't know the present position so the HLRO is probably a better bet.
Edit: Beer.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 8:56:06 GMT
Ah, now that is interesting, but does it tie in with the traffic shed? Just to clarify, this was where the Wells Terrace bus station is. I have access to the parliamanetary plans at work and archive engineering drawings, but these do not really say or explain anything other than the tunnel is there, which can also be seen in real life of course.
Now, your observation that is was a goods lift ties in with what I am thinking. There are also two shafts at the northern ends of the main line platforms on histroic mapping, which, it is likely, were used to access a 'Milk Subway' connecting to the Milk Traffic Shed.
Now, I think that the 25' dia tunnel was constructed to allow transfer of Milk from the main line to the Piccadilly line from the Milk Traffic Shed, under which the 25' dia tunnel is directly located! As you say, if there was a lift or at least a shaft on this site, it was potentially installed to take the milk from the traffic shed to the Piccadilly for distribution city wide, avoiding the congestion of Kings Cross and the roads around Finchley Park at that time.
A bit revolutionary I know, and not evidenced anywere other than through drawings, but that is becasue I have so far found no written evidence explaining it!
More thoughts, greatly appreciated!
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mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 8, 2014 11:03:45 GMT
Although we're now getting well off-topic...
Having looked a bit further into this - the CSLR and Bakerloo contemporary goods traffic was printed papers and small parcels - nothing larger than that - however, deeper research into WTT appendices may bear fruit, I've only quickly skimmed over what I can find.
Looking at what signalling information I can find for Finsbury Park (GNP&B) when the frame on the Picc. side was installed on 15/12/1906 it only had 15 levers. Fortunately contemporary plans and locking tables survive and although there are a lot of spare levers at Finsbury Park it seems very unlikely that another connection, save another scissors crossing was factored into the design - UndergrounD EP frames are *usually* very predictable in their design and the apportionment of the spares at FPk Picc make it look as if a 'mirror image' of the existing provision could have been provided if the line were ever to be extended.
If, as you say (and my very fleeting memory), places the 'milk connections' at the northern end of FPk Picc then there just isn't the provision in the lever frame unless there was some very unusual jiggery-pokery with the levers as installed. Certainly looking at the Westinghouse paperwork - and given that the lead time between ordering and commissioning a frame is of the order of six months, it would appear that the decision not to interlock the extra siding i.e. the 'milk connection' had been made by mid-summer 1906, possibly even earlier as the six-month lead time stems from when Westinghouse were not on major contracts - I susepct that the orders for the frames may even have been placed in 1905 or 1904.
Now, I'm not saying that you're wrong, far from it: but based on the evidence I have milk traffic on the GNP&B seems unlikely beyond the speculative stage when getting parliamentary authority.
Is there anyway that I could see the deposited plans for Finsbury Park GNP&B, please: that might confirm or deny my thoughts based on the frame interlocking.
Where would the spoil from construction have debouched at this end of the Picc.?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 12:06:11 GMT
That is great!
I should perhaps have clarified that I do not think there was going to be an additional siding, except the head shunt that was never constructed.
I think, that the 25' dia tunnel was actually to accomodate a platform for the transfer of milk churns from the traffic shed down to the Piccadilly line trains, whether at night or with a spare car or even within an actual passenger car put over for that purpose.
As you say, I do think this was a speculative excercise, based on the fact that it was the GNR who built the station and not the GNPBR.
I suggest it was a just in case, ratehr than actually used as such, just as we desing contingencies and possibilities in to railways now. Look at North Greenwich which has additional station tunnels for example!
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Post by abe on Jan 8, 2014 12:22:41 GMT
Not relating to the Piccadilly tunnels, but of possible relevance:
The GNR applied for an Act in 1903 for the construction of sidings (note plural!) for the GN&CR to the north of the station. The tunnel was to have been 356 yds in length. From a quick look at the plans, it would have had a short length of 16 ft diameter tunnel, but most would have been rather larger - perhaps a shade over 20 ft. The plans show the tunnel entirely beneath the GNR sidings; the centre line doesn't pass beneath any buildings, but there are several within the limits of deviation. No shafts to the surface shown though. It's interesting that the plans refer to sidings, but they don't make it clear whether this was one tunnel large enough for two parallel tracks or two parallel tunnels - and if the latter, why they needed to be so large. I can't see at present whether this became part of the GNR Act 1903, but it was certainly never constructed.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 13:30:03 GMT
That is interesting!I wonder if it was to be a cripple siding or sidings and a headshunt?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2014 20:37:22 GMT
One other image found after skimming the internet.
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Post by superteacher on Jan 12, 2014 20:58:19 GMT
Good find!
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Post by John Tuthill on Jan 13, 2014 10:41:12 GMT
One other image found after skimming the internet. Where did you find it, and are there anymore? I have a copy of "The Big Tube" by J. Graeme Bruce, published in 1976, nice little history of the line, plenty of photos but sadly none showing any platforms at any of the stations.
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Post by JR 15secs on Jan 13, 2014 11:15:06 GMT
Looking at what signalling information I can find for Finsbury Park (GNP&B) when the frame on the Picc. side was installed on 15/12/1906 it only had 15 levers. Fortunately contemporary plans and locking tables survive and although there are a lot of spare levers at Finsbury Park it seems very unlikely that another connection, save another scissors crossing was factored into the design - UndergrounD EP frames are *usually* very predictable in their design and the apportionment of the spares at FPk Picc make it look as if a 'mirror image' of the existing provision could have been provided if the line were ever to be extended. If, as you say (and my very fleeting memory), places the 'milk connections' at the northern end of FPk Picc then there just isn't the provision in the lever frame unless there was some very unusual jiggery-pokery with the levers as installed. Certainly looking at the Westinghouse paperwork - and given that the lead time between ordering and commissioning a frame is of the order of six months, it would appear that the decision not to interlock the extra siding i.e. the 'milk connection' had been made by mid-summer 1906, possibly even earlier as the six-month lead time stems from when Westinghouse were not on major contracts - I susepct that the orders for the frames may even have been placed in 1905 or 1904. Is there anyway that I could see the deposited plans for Finsbury Park GNP&B, please: that might confirm or deny my thoughts based on the frame interlocking. What spare levers are you talking about? The frame at Finsbury Park had 8 spare spaces these being 1,3,6,7,10,11,12,14.
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