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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2013 14:46:49 GMT
Further to searching for information on the contractual arrangements that exist between individual London Borough Councils, and TfL I found the following ( www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/Item07-Freedom-Pass-Settlement-FPC.pdf ) which suggests the amount paid to TfL is a negotiated sum and not based on actual usage, as demonstrated by swiped in information. However I assume all information from swiping the Freedom Card is stored and used in some statistical way for the Boroughs and TfL to agree the total sum, and presumably year on year smaller, or greater, proportional payments by respective Boroughs. Or do all Boroughs pay the same percentage ; irrelevant of service coverage within the borough, or number of cards held in that borough? Usage is of course also London bus and out of London buses so one assumes some hard bargaining around tables in smoke free rooms must go on. Is it possible for an individual to obtain journey history on a Freedom Card ( c.f Oyster ), and if not can it be supplied to the Police? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2013 15:32:01 GMT
If you register the Freedom Pass as an Oyster Card the usage is recorded at zero costs on any London journey (tube, Network Rail, bus, tram) just like any other Oyster journey. But not non London buses even though many do have their own validating machines these days. Don't know if these can be interrogated.
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Post by bicbasher on Sept 19, 2013 15:48:54 GMT
When I visited Brighton with my mother, despite the fact Brighton & Hove buses have ITSO readers (as Freedom Passes are ITSO and Oyster) she wasn't asked to use the reader.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2013 16:01:08 GMT
When I visited Brighton with my mother, despite the fact Brighton & Hove buses have ITSO readers (as Freedom Passes are ITSO and Oyster) she wasn't asked to use the reader. Strange, I visit Brighton frequently as my wife has family down there and I've been directed to swipe on their readers. |
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Post by crusty54 on Sept 19, 2013 18:50:24 GMT
When I worked at TfL I was told that the journey data from Oyster couldn't be used to avoid problems with the Data Protection Act.
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Post by phillw48 on Sept 19, 2013 20:36:31 GMT
I have used my pensioners bus pass (Essex) on London buses and I have never had to swipe it.
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Post by revupminster on Sept 19, 2013 21:50:03 GMT
You have to swipe your freedom pass in Torquay. I think the seaside towns resent out of towners using the bus and use the information to obtain a bigger settlement from the government.
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Post by causton on Sept 20, 2013 1:23:59 GMT
Swipe? It's touch  And ITSO readers and cards (i.e. ENCTS passes from the rest of the country - any bus pass that is not a Freedom Pass) and Oyster readers and cards (i.e. Freedom Passes) are at the moment completely incompatible. However this may change soon, but don't expect to be able to touch in with your Freedom Pass Oyster on a non-London bus anytime soon! |
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Post by revupminster on Sept 20, 2013 5:50:55 GMT
Swipe? It's touch And ITSO readers and cards (i.e. ENCTS passes from the rest of the country - any bus pass that is not a Freedom Pass) and Oyster readers and cards (i.e. Freedom Passes) are at the moment completely incompatible. However this may change soon, but don't expect to be able to touch in with your Freedom Pass Oyster on a non-London bus anytime soon! I did not understand any of the above, too many abbreviations. Last Tuesday in Torquay on a First bus the freedom pass turned the reader from orange to green. If you were too quick and it went red the driver presented the card to the reader for a few more seconds and it would go green. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2013 7:42:11 GMT
As Causton has said, the two ticketing systems are entirely different. It’s a bit like Betamax and VHS. TfLs system is almost entirely bespoke and cannot read tickets issued elsewhere.
Outside of London, most operators and County Councils have gone for the more popular and widely used ITSO system. This enables so much more data to be transferred between the card and reader. Therefore the TfL system which was developed quite early, is now in the minority.
The only issue with ITSO is the speed it takes to read the card. The problem is that it takes so long for the Electronic Ticket Machine (ETM) to read all the data on the card, then check it against known blacklists and so on.
Its quicker with “operator own” (i.e. non ITSO) cards as there is less data to transfer. So the TfL system is far simpler and this is useful as it helps speed boarding.
For security reasons TfL will not enable other operators access to their Oyster system.
As I said above, TfL ticket machines cannot currently read tickets issued elsewhere. So English National Concessionary passes (OAP/Disabled etc) cannot be read on the ETMs in London. Likewise ones issued by London Councils (to my knowledge) cannot be read outside the capital. As a result London tickets are used as flash cards (shown to the driver) and National Concessionary passes are similarly shown to the drivers in London. These are recorded by the driver by pressing the “Other Passes” button on the ETM.
There is a desire to combine both systems. I would suspect ITSO (or something similar) would win over. From meetings we have attended, it seems the project to replace the current Oyster system is scheduled for around 2016/8, subject to funding.
Hope that helps!
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Post by revupminster on Sept 20, 2013 9:19:46 GMT
But I am saying the London Freedom pass did work the reader in Torquay last Tuesday. It was not flashed at the driver and he pressed no buttons. The reader read the card in it's wallet and my wifes through her multi card wallet. I will agree it was slower to read the card than in London but only by seconds.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2013 9:39:53 GMT
Its possible then that they may have been able to put the ENCTS chip into the London version. Neither system is compatible as both work on different systems.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 20, 2013 11:44:30 GMT
Its possible then that they may have been able to put the ENCTS chip into the London version. Neither system is compatible as both work on different systems. That is not really correct. I agree the technologies start from different places but inter-working of the systems is being put in place. Freedom Passes which included ENCTS validity are dual chip cards - they can work on Oyster and on ITSO standard kit. I suspect that councils may not have comprehensively briefed operators that London Freedom Passes can now be read but that may account for people's varied experiences. The TfL network is being upgraded to allow the reading and processing of ITSO standard cards on all modes where Oyster cards are currently accepted. I believe all the buses with TfL ETMS on them have Tri Readers which can cope with Oyster, ITSO and Bank Cards (EMV). For whatever reason the ITSO reading capability has not yet been switched on for buses so TfL's own advice to concessionary pass holders from outside London is to show their pass. Testing is happening with Southern Railway Key Cards with test journeys being made into Victoria Main Line and at some intermediate stations. A project update is included in the latest TfL Investment Report which is on the TfL website as part of the Board Papers for the Sept 2013 meeting. The government have also announced the application of ITSO Smart ticketing on the full C2C network next year. Other schemes like part time seasons are also going to be tested but the rail line has not yet been identified. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2013 13:27:54 GMT
Snoggle are you saying that London’s Freedom passes have both chips (eg two) embedded in the card? If that is the case this would explain how both systems can be read from one card. From our discussions with Wayfarer, they firmly state that the TfL Oyster system (and code) is very closely guarded and thus will always remain separate. Everything else is ring fenced away from it for security.
I would assume the use of non-London cards in the Capital remains as before. The current standing instruction are that these are used as Flash cards.
At a recent Directors meeting in London, we were told that the Oyster system is scheduled for replacement in the next few years. This will entail new ETMs, possibly an entirely new card system, all linked to a new ibus system. TfL have stated publically that transferring the Oyster functionality to Bank charge cards is likely to be the future direction in which they will want to go. This helps reduce back office costs, as it shifts the cost of card issuing to the Bank.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2013 14:22:27 GMT
Havent really learnt anything regarding my core questions ..... but
Having thought to ask that question regarding printing out a Freedom Pass history – I went to the local station and asked whether such a journey history could be printed out, as could that of an Oyster Card.
The clerk didn’t seem at all certain but said – lets give it a try – and sure enough it did work.
An observation of mine is that on occasions when I have not swiped-in my Freedom Pass at a TfL station for an Underground journey, the ticket gate at the destination has never 'queried' i.e. refused me exit.
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Post by causton on Sept 20, 2013 21:46:12 GMT
An observation of mine is that on occasions when I have not swiped-in my Freedom Pass at a TfL station for an Underground journey, the ticket gate at the destination has never 'queried' i.e. refused me exit. Same as a season ticket then - which is what I assume a Freedom Pass effectively is! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2014 12:25:15 GMT
Further to problems with carrying a Contactless Bank Debit Card in the same wallet as my Freedom Pass I received the comment quoted below from TfL.
The problem is that the card reader doesn't know which card to 'charge', and thus refuses access.
After trying three or four times the Freedom Card appears to lock up - and I was advised it would 'reopen' when used at a card reader at another location.
TfL do appear to have briefed staff on this matter.
My response is to ask my bank for a non contactless card! I assume the boffins/anoraks will sort this out in due course.......??
""""""""""""" Contactless Payment Cards (CPCs)
Thank you for your feedback regarding the use of Contactless Payment Cards.
Due to the fact that technology concerning the use of CPCs has not yet advanced to a level which would enable card readers to automatically detect a passenger’s chosen card, passengers must still tap their chosen card onto card readers in order for payment to be made.
If you have more than one contactless card in your wallet (including building passes and Oyster cards), you should choose which card you want to use to pay for your journey and remove it from your wallet before touching it on the yellow card reader.
We hope to introduce contactless payments in May 2014 on the following: Tube , Docklands Light Rail (DLR) , Trams , London Overground
Weekly capping of pay as you go fares will also be introduced for the first time. By 2016 we will have improved the existing Oyster card to carry many of the same features as contactless payment cards.
We will also continue to work with the Department for Transport (DfT), train operating companies and others to integrate ticketing and information to provide customers with seamless journeys regardless of who operates the service. """"""""""""""""""""
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Post by orienteer on Jan 30, 2014 16:22:33 GMT
Havent really learnt anything regarding my core questions ..... but Having thought to ask that question regarding printing out a Freedom Pass history – I went to the local station and asked whether such a journey history could be printed out, as could that of an Oyster Card. The clerk didn’t seem at all certain but said – lets give it a try – and sure enough it did work. An observation of mine is that on occasions when I have not swiped-in my Freedom Pass at a TfL station for an Underground journey, the ticket gate at the destination has never 'queried' i.e. refused me exit. Since there are no revenues involved, there'd be no point. |
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Post by trt on Jan 30, 2014 16:38:20 GMT
Further to problems with carrying a Contactless Bank Debit Card in the same wallet as my Freedom Pass I received the comment quoted below from TfL. The problem is that the card reader doesn't know which card to 'charge', and thus refuses access. After trying three or four times the Freedom Card appears to lock up - and I was advised it would 'reopen' when used at a card reader at another location. TfL do appear to have briefed staff on this matter. My response is to ask my bank for a non contactless card! I assume the boffins/anoraks will sort this out in due course.......?? """"""""""""" Contactless Payment Cards (CPCs) Thank you for your feedback regarding the use of Contactless Payment Cards. Due to the fact that technology concerning the use of CPCs has not yet advanced to a level which would enable card readers to automatically detect a passenger’s chosen card, passengers must still tap their chosen card onto card readers in order for payment to be made. If you have more than one contactless card in your wallet (including building passes and Oyster cards), you should choose which card you want to use to pay for your journey and remove it from your wallet before touching it on the yellow card reader. We hope to introduce contactless payments in May 2014 on the following: Tube , Docklands Light Rail (DLR) , Trams , London Overground Weekly capping of pay as you go fares will also be introduced for the first time. By 2016 we will have improved the existing Oyster card to carry many of the same features as contactless payment cards. We will also continue to work with the Department for Transport (DfT), train operating companies and others to integrate ticketing and information to provide customers with seamless journeys regardless of who operates the service. """""""""""""""""""" Something weird happened to me as I was boarding the number 40 the other day... Is it possible for those readers to read a card from about two to three feet away? My pass wouldn't work as I tapped it on the reader, but I'm sure I saw what I would have expected to see for my pass come up as the woman in front started to move away from the reader. My pass was in my hand at least two feet, if not three, away from the pad at the time. I thought she must have had the same type of pass as me, but then mine wouldn't read, behaving as if I'd presented it once already. If the oscillator was outputting far more power than it should, then it could in theory activate a card from much further away. Same technology as they use in security tags at shop doors etc, isn't it? |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 30, 2014 17:51:47 GMT
We hope to introduce contactless payments in May 2014 on the following: Tube , Docklands Light Rail (DLR) , Trams , London Overground Weekly capping of pay as you go fares will also be introduced for the first time. By 2016 we will have improved the existing Oyster card to carry many of the same features as contactless payment cards. We will also continue to work with the Department for Transport (DfT), train operating companies and others to integrate ticketing and information to provide customers with seamless journeys regardless of who operates the service. """""""""""""""""""" Well if nothing else your reply from TfL gives the first insight I've seen to a likely introduction date of rail mode usage of contactless bank cards - May 2014. Note the lack of mention of National Rail services so here we go again with a repeat of Oyster's initial "TfL services only" availability. I am surprised to see reference to *weekly* capping rather than daily which is what I was expecting for the initial launch. Looks like TfL are going to have to reinvent the LT Card product in terms of daily and weekly capping and availability for contactless bank card use. |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 30, 2014 17:58:24 GMT
Havent really learnt anything regarding my core questions ..... but Having thought to ask that question regarding printing out a Freedom Pass history – I went to the local station and asked whether such a journey history could be printed out, as could that of an Oyster Card. The clerk didn’t seem at all certain but said – lets give it a try – and sure enough it did work. An observation of mine is that on occasions when I have not swiped-in my Freedom Pass at a TfL station for an Underground journey, the ticket gate at the destination has never 'queried' i.e. refused me exit. If you want to learn about how the Freedom Pass is funded and what role the card data plays then do some research on the London Councils website. They fund the Freedom Pass and there are various papers on the site that explain the basis on which the costs are derived. A new settlement is due in 2014 so I would expect some up to date papers to emerge soon. |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 30, 2014 19:07:05 GMT
Snoggle are you saying that London’s Freedom passes have both chips (eg two) embedded in the card? If that is the case this would explain how both systems can be read from one card. From our discussions with Wayfarer, they firmly state that the TfL Oyster system (and code) is very closely guarded and thus will always remain separate. Everything else is ring fenced away from it for security. I would assume the use of non-London cards in the Capital remains as before. The current standing instruction are that these are used as Flash cards. At a recent Directors meeting in London, we were told that the Oyster system is scheduled for replacement in the next few years. This will entail new ETMs, possibly an entirely new card system, all linked to a new ibus system. TfL have stated publically that transferring the Oyster functionality to Bank charge cards is likely to be the future direction in which they will want to go. This helps reduce back office costs, as it shifts the cost of card issuing to the Bank. I haven't delved back into this set of posts until today so sorry for a big gap between replies. I am saying that London Freedom Passes that have the ENCTS logo are dual chipped. This allows them to be read by buses outside London. TfL have implemented the DfT mandated and funded project to allow all Oyster readers to read ITSO spec cards. This project is now shown as complete in the latest TfL investment report. The initial launch of compatible products was Southern's The Key into Victoria and London Bridge from certain Southern stations on the Brighton line. The extension of ITSO card acceptance on to TfL services is reliant on ITSO head office systems with TOCs being integrated to talk to TfL's ITSO Head Office Processing Systems (HOPS) *plus* approriate TOC / TfL agreements being negotiated, agreed and signed off. I have yet to hear of any TOC other than Southern being in a position to run into London. C2C might be next given it's doing some ITSO stuff this year. I am unclear just how far TOCs that have ITSO franchise commitments are in terms of installing kit up to the London boundary. SWT and London Midland have commitments but their kit is not, AFAIK, very widespread nor is the use of ITSO format season tickets. Looming in the background we have SEFT which is supposed to put ITSO kit on every South East region TOC but I'll believe it when I see it simply because it's a massive project and the procurement process was running late when they issued the OJEU notice. I do not know if or when TfL will activate the ITSO card reading capability on bus readers but clearly it is there waiting to be switched on. The Future Ticketing Project is the TfL initiative you mention to provide bank card acceptance, "back room" processing and capping. A later phase, yet to be approved, is the one to replace the current "intelligent" Oyster Card with a future "dumb" Oyster smartcard whereby all the card does is create journey transactions which are then reconciled in the back room. It remains to be seen if this element of the project receives approval. |
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