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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2014 17:08:45 GMT
Would the LT museum consider saving them I wonder?
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Post by fish7373 on Jun 12, 2014 8:19:07 GMT
HI When at northfields depot as a leaf cleaning train the brake handle was westinghouse type number 4 and the pcm was like the standered stock equiment if iam wrong, sounds good start a fund metman.would be good if the LT museum hand them also. FISH7373
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Jun 12, 2014 17:55:50 GMT
I have a good friend who has that sort of money and is prepared to buy them. The IWSR would make a good home and make good use of them, being air-braked! Working on the basis that the island used a lot of old Underground stock, including Met 8-wheelers.
With the forthcoming use of Ivatt tanks on the IWSR one could sort of re-create something that "may" have happened on the Chesham branch.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jun 12, 2014 21:29:09 GMT
Sounds interesting....
Just picking up on something which was said earlier the T stock had similar sorts of motors to southern emus. Would that be something like a 4SUB? I seem to recall that some Class 455 units have former sub motors? I wonder if they could be procured? With all the spare A stock parts for sale perhaps they could be restored to something similar to their best??
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Jun 12, 2014 23:14:31 GMT
I don't see why they couldn't utilise more modern electrical gear than that originally fitted. After al,, Routemasters have modern engines, steam locos have new boilers...
455s do have SUB motors and compressors. Any wiring would have to be to modern standards anyway and be capable of taking up to 850 volts on today's 3rd and 4th rail systems. Mind you, this won't be necessary if they're used as loco-0hauled stock on the IWSR.
<<rincew1nd:Posts up to (and including this) are from a separate thread, which has now been merged into this thread.>>
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2014 10:17:59 GMT
Official invitation for interested parties.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2014 21:06:07 GMT
I do hope they are saved. To me, EOR sounds like an interesting place to relocate them, with the LU atmosphere. But that would be on the condition that they complete the sale of CIG 1498. I like the idea of salvaging A stock traction equipment for them, but wouldn't mind either way if they just ended up being dragged by Sarah Siddons.
I pray for our saviour and his £20,000 deposit.
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,275
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Post by roythebus on Jul 2, 2014 6:49:20 GMT
As may have been mentioned elsewhere on here, the Spa Valley Railway is offering the T stock for sale.
I went to have a look at the T stock yesterday evening; both coaches have been graffiti'd but that is not an insurmountable problem as they'll need a repaint anyway. The interiors have obviously has a lot of work done to bring them back to passenger carrying standard, though damp has crept in and some of the seat moquette has mould and mildew.
Luckily none of the interiors have been vandalised. The doors and droplights seem to work, though some are a bit stiff through being stored in the damp area at Groombridge. there's a few roof leaks and interestingly, the roofs appear to be steel sheet.
I'd be interested to know if anyone has the dimensions of these cars and unladen weight, remembering the traction motors have been removed and the switchgear removed from one of the cars. Would they come under the BR Restriction 0 I wonder?
There's been some contact between myself and the Isle of Wight Steam Railway as a possible home for these coaches, but the IWSR would only accept them as a donation, i.e. the would require ownership on the grounds that they own everything else there. I'm prepared to continue negotiations on this basis and will have a meeting with their engineering manager in the near future to discuss this. Now I have a contact who would be prepared to give a substantial sum of money to see this happen, would anyone else be prepared to donate toward this end? Can anyone provide the information about the dimensions? The IWSR would also need them to be in an "almost ready-to-run" condition as they don't have the manpower or workshop space for more long-term restorations.
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Jul 2, 2014 6:51:11 GMT
I've started a separate thread in the "historic" section about the condition of the stock. Maybe the mods can merge the 2 threads?
as requested threads merged, placed into Historical.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jul 2, 2014 17:54:54 GMT
I believe that the T stock weighed just shy of 49 tons when fully equipped so at a guess they would be 20 tons less perhaps. It must be remembered however that the heavy plate frame bogies are still in place. My guess is that they will weigh approx 35 tons now.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jul 8, 2014 11:26:39 GMT
So would the ultimate plan be to keep them as loco stock, or initially loco stock with a long term view to install some kind of electric traction equipment in them?
Perhaps details could be discussed at the summer Forum meet?
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Post by phillw48 on Jul 8, 2014 14:03:28 GMT
No preserved railway would be allowed to install live third/fourth rail so it would only be as hauled stock or battery power.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jul 8, 2014 17:58:52 GMT
No preserved railway would be allowed to install live third/fourth rail... I suspect they would, but it would need an awful lot of paperwork and signs a-plenty. It was only a few years ago that Siemens installed brand new 3rd rail on their test-track so they could play with test the new Desiros.
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Post by phillw48 on Jul 8, 2014 19:02:30 GMT
No preserved railway would be allowed to install live third/fourth rail... I suspect they would, but it would need an awful lot of paperwork and signs a-plenty. It was only a few years ago that Siemens installed brand new 3rd rail on their test-track so they could play with test the new Desiros. The Epping-Ongar Railway wanted to reinstate the third/fourth rail and were told that they couldn't. Siemens were allowed to install a third rail only because it was necessary for their purposes. Likewise Network Rail have to 'prove' their case even to extend third rail. The only third rail that is allowed to be built 'new' is with bottom collection such as the DLR. There is also the necessary infrastructure such as sub stations and electricity supply which would be more expensive than most if not all preserved railways could afford.
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Jul 8, 2014 19:13:48 GMT
Hmmmm, it would be interesting to see what would happen if the Lottery gave a grant to restore the "historic 4th rail" then!
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jul 8, 2014 19:24:15 GMT
Hmmmm, it would be interesting to see what would happen if the Lottery gave a grant to restore the "historic 4th rail" then! Slightly more plausibly, the Bluebell Railway have not ruled out the possibility of re-opening the Haywards Heath - Horsted Keynes route, which, unlike the Spa Valley line and Quainton Road, was actually electrified. www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/extend.html
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Post by tjw on Jul 8, 2014 19:33:10 GMT
I suspect that when the weight of the paper work equals the weight of the third rail then it will be allowed. As I understand... 1. You are not allowed to turn it on for a few hours over a weekend and turn it off when you have finished. (I am told it is not a good idea to turn it off for long periods.) 2. You must have a control room manned 24/7. 3. You need to convince (and PAY) the Electricity companies to build substation(s), and transmission line, that is if they have the power to spare. 4. You will need to find an understanding insurance company. I believe the Southern Electric Group have looked into how it could be done... £1... lots of zeros here!
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Jul 8, 2014 19:51:35 GMT
It would be possible to reinstate the control gear that's missing as I understand it's been kept. Likewise if anyone can source suitable motors, compressors and the like, nothing is impossible.
However, for the stock to be of any use in the near future, it would have to be as loco-hauled stock on a heritage line that has air-braked locos. By itself as a 2-car set it would not offer many seats, and there aren't that many steam railways that have air-braked stock, and it's not really feasible to run a dual-braked train unless you have a couple of spare MLVs. There is only 1 air-braked line that I can think of, and trying to persuade that railway that the T stock would be Really Useful to them is difficult.
IF the stock could be presented there in a restored runnable state, it may well be welcomed, but that railway does not "hire in" locos or stock except for special occasions like "Thomas". So assuming we could afford to buy the set from the SVR, we would then need somewhere to store it for about 2 years while a group of volunteers gets it back to running condition; this would include a repaint, getting doors and windows to open, tidy up the interiors, weatherproof the roof and check out the running gear.
So the £20k asking price is achievable; there'd be probably £4k to transport it to "somewhere" for the work to be undertaken. Not many heritage lines have room or workshop space for more "dead" stock, so it would have to be off a railway. There's undercover premises opposite me that could accommodate these, but the rent would be around £2.5k a year. Whatever the paint costs and so on... you're probably looking at £50k to get these back in service. Does anyone have that kind of money? Could a group be formed to raise that? I already have an offer of a substantial amount towards purchasing them but would now need to be matched £ for £ to allow this to happen.
I have up-to-date pics but can't seem to post them here as it will only allow pics from a host website and I don't have that facility.
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Post by domh245 on Jul 8, 2014 20:11:20 GMT
I suspect that when the weight of the paper work equals the weight of the third rail then it will be allowed. As I understand... 1. You are not allowed to turn it on for a few hours over a weekend and turn it off when you have finished. (I am told it is not a good idea to turn it off for long periods.) 2. You must have a control room manned 24/7. 3. You need to convince (and PAY) the Electricity companies to build substation(s), and transmission line, that is if they have the power to spare. 4. You will need to find an understanding insurance company. I believe the Southern Electric Group have looked into how it could be done... £1... lots of zeros here! For point 3, you could always play the green card, and install solar panels, wind turbines, and other renewable sources, to create your own local supply just for your traction. Alternatively, if these guys get some funding (or collaborate with some heritage railway somewhere) and get some decent lengths of track and Power supply laid, you might well end up with a place for all of the preserved EMU stock to run about
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 15:41:19 GMT
The best place for it would be where there is infrastructure already in place, which I why I thought it be good for 4VEP 3417 if the Lymington - Brockenhurst branch returned to being a heritage EMU line. So the same principle could be considered for the T Stock.
For example, you could alter the Metropolitan Timetable to change alternate Chesham trains into shuttles from Chalfont & Latimer using the T Stock.
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Post by phillw48 on Jul 9, 2014 15:43:12 GMT
Is there still track in the bay at Chalfont & Latimer?
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Post by tjw on Jul 9, 2014 18:12:14 GMT
Yes, but the rails are rather rusty.
I believe the fuse has been taken out, so can only be used under engineering possession.
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
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Post by roythebus on Jul 10, 2014 6:23:46 GMT
I doubt that the T stock would be suitable for daily operation on the Chesham branch; it would need a lot of drivers to be trained on it; what to replace it with when it's off for maintenance or breakdowns; fitting central door locking; use of traction voltage for light etc. A nice idea but impractical. Besides, nobody's yet come up with offers of finance, where to keep it in the meantime or where to find the "missing" traction motor and equipment.
I have someone interested in sponsoring a chunky part of the purchase, but even trying to find a railway to accept the stock is proving difficult, let alone raining the rest of the finance.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 13:14:09 GMT
As it would be very difficult if not impossible to replace the stripped traction/electrics, and few preserved lines operate with air brakes, has anyone considered that fitting vac brakes might make the stock more appealing ? The modified brake gear would be largely out of sight, and at least it would ensure preservation of the fabric of the coaches.
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roythebus
Pleased to say the restoration of BEA coach MLL738 is as complete as it can be, now restoring MLL721
Posts: 1,275
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Post by roythebus on Jul 14, 2014 22:37:58 GMT
Anything is possible, there's enough vacuum brake cylinders lying around the country!
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