metman
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Post by metman on Mar 14, 2014 19:50:16 GMT
My records indicate the following:
Harrow 1994 3539-3257 (3539-4539 scrapped)
Piccadilly 1994 (3249-4249 scrapped)
Piccadilly 1996 (3257 scrapped)
It will be noted that 3257 was at the trailing end of the train which collided with the stops at harrow only to be written off on the cross over at Piccadilly two years later!
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Mar 21, 2014 14:34:02 GMT
To make up a good unit after 3257 was scrapped(cut up in Stonebridge Pk lifting shop)3357 was turned & put on the north end & an UNDM put in the middle motor position.The unit is now numbered 3299.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Mar 22, 2014 2:11:20 GMT
Now that they have to see out another decade or so, and with spare 1967ts, is there any chance that the unit will be standardised with a replacement DM?
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 22, 2014 11:28:19 GMT
There has been murmurings of adding two additional trains to the Bakerloo fleet so no doubt unit 3299 would be standardised. A spare UNDM will need to be refurbished however. The interior fittings may come from a 67 car. A special 45XX trailer will also need to be made up. None survived as part of the 67 fleet as these were all 4 car units.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2014 15:14:06 GMT
In Hainault depot there is (still) 4511 and 3411 ......
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metman
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Post by metman on Mar 22, 2014 19:03:35 GMT
I bet they will need a lot of work to convert them?
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Post by tubeprune on Mar 25, 2014 7:35:50 GMT
I thought that the 73TS used westcode brakes, or were these introduced with the D78 stock. I'd have thought that the 72TS was most like the C stock in braking equipment, which as far as I am aware didn't use westcode, but had an EP brake with a westinghouse as their failsafe. Could you clarify the difference as a quick check on tubeprunes old website (I get a 404 error for the 73TS page on the new website if you read this) says that the 73TS have a westcode EP brake, whilst the 72TS have an EP brake of unspecified origin, which I assume was a generic system. They would be similar in basic function, but no doubt they would have some differences in how they carry out their Job (use of train wires &c.) For the brief time I was working on overhauling brakes for both 72 and 73, it was explained to me how both stocks used the same brakes (I may be mistaken however). This is one of the cylinders of either the 72 or 73. I have another image of it completely built, but its so blurry I would be embarrassed to post it   Just to clear this up for the record, the brake control system on 73TS is quite different from the 72TS but the brake cylinders should be very similar (I haven't seen either for about 30 years). What is different about them is the way the air gets into them. On the 72s, the system is similar to the C Stock rheostatic and Westinghouse electro-pneumatic system with a brake pipe (called the Train Line like American terminology) for backup and emergency braking. The 73s use rheostatic braking and the Westcode system with a 7-step relay valve and electrical control of emergency braking. There is no Train Line. The two system are incompatible. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 17:37:36 GMT
For the brief time I was working on overhauling brakes for both 72 and 73, it was explained to me how both stocks used the same brakes (I may be mistaken however). This is one of the cylinders of either the 72 or 73. I have another image of it completely built, but its so blurry I would be embarrassed to post it Just to clear this up for the record, the brake control system on 73TS is quite different from the 72TS but the brake cylinders should be very similar (I haven't seen either for about 30 years). What is different about them is the way the air gets into them. On the 72s, the system is similar to the C Stock rheostatic and Westinghouse electro-pneumatic system with a brake pipe (called the Train Line like American terminology) for backup and emergency braking. The 73s use rheostatic braking and the Westcode system with a 7-step relay valve and electrical control of emergency braking. There is no Train Line. The two system are incompatible. Looks like I am mistaken. Thanks for clearing that up  |
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Post by motorman on Mar 26, 2014 19:47:10 GMT
How many units of 67 Stock remain and are suitable to augment the 72 Stock fleet?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 18:26:40 GMT
Is it effectively the necessary inventment in the Bloos stock, then, thats the nail in the coffin for the 73ts, ultimately? The Bakerloo has had enough had me downs! I love the '72 stock more than the '73 stock! I love the 1972 stock- very comfortable seats (much better than those on the 2009 stock!) |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 20:17:07 GMT
Snoggle - the 1973ts is hardly 'limping' along, and thats my point. The *impression* seems to be that structural work is needed so immediately for the Bakerloo stock that new stock could not be developed and ordered for whatever line and a suitable cascade occur within the timescale necessary. If this wasn't the case the newer design of the more mechanically reliable, more recently refurbished 73ts would be a far candidate for serving longer. See the TfL paper that I linked to in a post just above this one. The imperative for the Picc Line is the vast capacity improvement and associated benefits - in other words it is really worth doing and also it's daft to delay it any more. Given it's a big project to upgrade the line then better to get going ASAP even if the trains can be made to run for a further 8-10 years or so (well LU has no choice actually!). LU has to hope it doesn't get some sort of endemic failure with the 73 stock in those 10 years. Look at the projected uplift in train capacity / tph for the eventual Bakerloo line upgrade - far, are more modest which shows that there is no pressing need to do anything substantial for the Bakerloo. It's not under great pressure nor is it forecast to be so it can limp along for another 20 years with some "pimped up" 72 stock. Clearly there are some fleet issues so spending cash to rectify those in order to get another 20 years out of stock that is, in general terms, at the end of its life is the only viable option. LU / TfL clearly cannot justify to the DfT and Treasury that there is a compelling case *at this time* to spend billions on the Bakerloo Line. If you think about it by the time we get to 2023 or so then TfL will be saying "we really MUST upgrade the Bakerloo Line. The trains will be over 60 years old in 2033 and we cannot keep them in service beyond that. Cough up the money now or the line will have to be shut." There is a limit to "sweating the assets" and I think 2033 will be it for the Bakerloo Line fleet and infrastructure. It make sense to wait till Crossrail is running before upgrading the Piccadilly line so as not to affect the Heathrow service much. Though I wouldn't mind using '72 stock in 2040 lol! |
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 3, 2014 22:20:28 GMT
Quite agree. I'd love to be using the 72 stock for the next 20 years! My favourite trains still in service by far.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 22:27:39 GMT
Just noticed this sorry! My data comes from TfL's site: www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/modesoftransport/londonunderground/1592.aspxActually it seems to have not been updated for a few months now :/ I have a question relating to the Bakerloo's stock. Is it really in such poor physical condition that it must be rebuilt *now*, instead waiting and becoming the first to receive new stock? To quote PoP of London Reconnections: Well I guess we'll have to ensure that new bakerloo line trains can handle curves well! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 22:31:43 GMT
Given the age of these trains maybe Queens Park Bakerloo Line station platforms should be renamed Jurassic Park! XF Nonsense old is gold! |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 3, 2014 22:34:34 GMT
The Bakerloo has had enough had me downs! The 1972 mk 2 stock started out on the Bakerloo, but in the divorce from the Jubilee the latter got to keep them - only to give them back when it got the 83s! |
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Post by A60stock on Apr 3, 2014 22:49:21 GMT
so when will these modifications or major refurbishment take place and would anyone be able to speculate when these trains will START to be withdrawn?
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 4, 2014 6:24:03 GMT
The Bakerloo has had enough had me downs! The 1972 mk 2 stock started out on the Bakerloo, but in the divorce from the Jubilee the latter got to keep them - only to give them back when it got the 83s! Actually the 1972mk2 stock entered service on the northern line and was ultimately intended to be used on the Bakerloo line. Initially the plan was for it to be used on the jubilee line until the new extensions were built and a new larger fleet of purpose built automatic stock was built. This eventually happened if course but not quite as planned! |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 4, 2014 8:22:52 GMT
Actually the 1972mk2 stock entered service on the northern line and was ultimately intended to be used on the Bakerloo line. So it did, although it was still very new when it went to the B'loo. Why did it go to the Northern first? What did it replace, and what then replaced it? (It was presumably connected with the introduction of 1973 stock, and consequent transfer of 1959 stock from the Picc to the Northern: was there simply more life left in the Bakerloo's fleet of 1938 stock than in the Northern's? |
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Post by carltona on Apr 4, 2014 9:57:41 GMT
The late eighties was quite an interesting time on the Bakerloo with stocks coming and going and mixed fleets in operation. That's how I remember it anyway.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Apr 4, 2014 12:39:30 GMT
As built the 72Mk2s had the wiring for the same ATO system as the Victoria Line as the initial section of the Fleet/Jubilee Line was intended to be ATO originally.There was a train of 72Mk2 at Northumberland Pk for a couple of months in the mid 70s for test running in ATO.
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 4, 2014 15:49:49 GMT
Didn't know that thanks. The 1972mk2 stock was built for stage one of the jubilee as stated but it was built 5 years early because the 1973 stock was some time away and to ensure met cammell had work on and wouldn't get wound up. The 1938 stock was having real troubles by the early 70s and being such a large fleet needed gradual replacement. The 1972 mk1 stock was an easy solution in the short term so the worst 210 cars of 38 stock could go. In reality much of the 1949 stock was scrapped by the mid 70s along with the '58 trailers which were now 45 years old! The mk2 stock was able to allow another 33 trains of 38 stock to go. Ultimately the 38ts was replaced by 4 different tube stocks over a time period of 17 years! The 56/59 stock transfer to the northern allowed the mk2 stock to get onto the Bakerloo. Some returned to the northern in the 80s when 1983 stock started on the jubilee. The Bakerloo then had a mix of 1938/59 stock - interesting times indeed!  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2014 23:13:21 GMT
I must say at least TfL aren't planning to resurrect some 1938 trains for the Bakerloo line lol!
though I wouldn't mind TfL keeping the design in mind when designing the new train
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Post by crusty54 on Apr 5, 2014 7:41:06 GMT
I must say at least TfL aren't planning to resurrect some 1938 trains for the Bakerloo line lol! though I wouldn't mind TfL keeping the design in mind when designing the new train The real problem is that the trains are not designed in-house. D78 and 1983 stocks were and the single doors were a disaster. That was because the design people were persuaded that door failures would be reduced. The real trouble started with 1992 stock. The makers look more at cheap components than long life. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 23:41:21 GMT
I must say at least TfL aren't planning to resurrect some 1938 trains for the Bakerloo line lol! though I wouldn't mind TfL keeping the design in mind when designing the new train The real problem is that the trains are not designed in-house. D78 and 1983 stocks were and the single doors were a disaster. That was because the design people were persuaded that door failures would be reduced. The real trouble started with 1992 stock. The makers look more at cheap components than long life. Surely LU have gone wrong - as the saying goes 'if it isn't broken don't attempt to 'fix' it'! If I was in charge of LU new trains would be very similar to 1938 stock externally but with state of the art signalling,engines, etc...! |
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Post by miff on Apr 6, 2014 20:30:50 GMT
Perhaps we need to go back to the days of the 'accountants rebuild'.
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towerman
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Post by towerman on Apr 11, 2014 12:41:57 GMT
The reason 72mMk2s run wrong way round on the Bakerloo(4 car to the south)was due to the poor state of the brakes on the shunting control panel end(ex 38/49TS)and the powers that be didn't want someone approaching a dead end and have a brake failure.This problem was lost on refurb when an EP brake was fitted to the panel controls but they couldn't be bothered to go through the rigmarole of turning all the fleet.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 13:04:49 GMT
I thought they were turned around while transporting them for refurb?
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metman
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Post by metman on Apr 11, 2014 13:10:51 GMT
No believe towerman is right. I believe even today using the 33xx cab is preferred for shunting due to the convenient nature of the controls.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 11, 2014 15:56:03 GMT
I'm sure I read somewhere that the reason bakerloo trains are back to front compared to other lines goes back to when trains were split at Wtaford Junction to allow short formations in the off peak, the 3car set being left behind at Watford Jct or driven to Croxley depot. This originally required them to be driven 2 miles using the shunt controls in the UNDM, until DMs could be sourced from elsewhere to allow the 3car sets to have a cab at both ends. This thread discusses both this and the 1972 stock arrangments www.districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/13501 |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 11:19:37 GMT
Perhaps we need to go back to the days of the 'accountants rebuild' What does that mean? |
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