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Post by drpete on Jul 25, 2013 15:29:19 GMT
Out of interest, and speaking as a non expert, what causes a "signal failure" (other than it stops working - that I figured). As Underground users, we've become accustomed to "service disruption due to signal failure at..."- I was wondering what happened when one did; and what usually causes it? Could someone explain, and maybe explain how they get fixed, and maybe if they could be prevented?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2013 7:54:30 GMT
A signal failure is a generic term used to cover a wide range of things and is used when something related to the signalling system causes delays. That something could be a track circuit failure, a train stop failure, a points machine failure, an axle counter failure, a cable fault or a hundred and one other things. There is no one single cause, just an effect - ie the service gets delayed.
As there is no one single cause there is no utopian solution. Replacement systems such as that on the Jubilee don't use trainstops with their pneumatic and mechanical components so failures from that are eliminated but the new systems have their own issues such as susceptability to damage of the track mounted cable where this is used, greater reliance on software and computer systems etc.
Clearly the hope is that the new systems are more reliable than the old. Someone will no doubt know how the lines with conventional signalling compare in terms of reliability with those that have the new systems.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2013 18:11:59 GMT
The convential lines are realible as the system has been in now for many years and that any quirks have long been ironed out. Also the equipment is well designed and is simple to use / maintain but with everything its gotto be replaced at some point with modern technology plus which will need less maintenance
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 27, 2013 13:08:52 GMT
The convential lines are realible as the system has been in now for many years and that any quirks have long been ironed out. Also the equipment is well designed and is simple to use / maintain but with everything its gotto be replaced at some point with modern technology plus which will need less maintenance Generally speaking one gets what one pays for, that is to say that although well made conventional signalling equipment was expensive to purchase and maintain it had dependable longevity. I am not so sure that modern signalling equipment will stand the test of time so well, in recent years the drive to economise upon the costs of maintaining traditional signalling equipment led to replacement of expensive parts with cheaper ones, a false economy borne out by subsequent failures. Short termism is a very British disease that had not affected the Underground until relatively recently and I would question why there is a need to use new technology, after all LUL still has a great deal of 100+ year old technology in service which has stood the test of time and of course there is also plenty of 50+ year old technology in service as well. Modern technology is not necessarily better, there are no guarantees in that regard although I believe that LUL generally specifies a minimum expected working life of 20 years. One has to wonder if 'S' stock will last that long given the scrapping of 1983 stock and the problems associated with 1992 stock. In the long run new technology will prove to have been more expensive to design, install and maintain as it will be life expired far more quickly than that employed in the past.
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Post by orienteer on Jul 28, 2013 20:40:25 GMT
Surely new signalling is required for ATO, which allows a more intensive service.
I thought the Jubilee 83 stock was scrapped because the single leaf door design was slow to load/unload, and it wasn't desirable to order more of the same when the Jubilee extension was built.
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Post by railtechnician on Jul 29, 2013 6:44:03 GMT
Surely new signalling is required for ATO, which allows a more intensive service. I thought the Jubilee 83 stock was scrapped because the single leaf door design was slow to load/unload, and it wasn't desirable to order more of the same when the Jubilee extension was built. Oh really? Look back in history and you'll better appreciate just what an intensive service is, there hasn't been such on the LT/LU system in decades! As for any and all other things signalling and rolling stock I would say that it boils down to a chicken and egg situation complicated by the differing aspirations of individual line organisations and with a corporate management that appears to have no clear image of the future to work towards. Never forget that LT had ATO almost 50 years ago, rolling stock and signalling that worked together and worked well, what's so different now? AFAIK the problem is that politicians and accountants control the purse strings but have little or no concept of engineering design and the financial rewards associated with longevity, standardisation and excellent installation and maintenance practices.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2013 18:11:40 GMT
The best LU got if I remember was many moons ago when the conventional lines (not vic) had alot of speed control signals via speed inductors and a lot of home signals going up to F in some parts. Its simple really the more signals you have the closer the trains can become and thus increasing the trains per hour figure some one has told me the figure was approx 40 tph but I couldnt say that is 100%. We still have a couple of sites where the home signal is AxxxD as it was cheaper to leave some in then rip it all out.
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Post by railtechnician on Aug 1, 2013 0:28:04 GMT
The best LU got if I remember was many moons ago when the conventional lines (not vic) had alot of speed control signals via speed inductors and a lot of home signals going up to F in some parts. Its simple really the more signals you have the closer the trains can become and thus increasing the trains per hour figure some one has told me the figure was approx 40 tph but I couldnt say that is 100%. We still have a couple of sites where the home signal is AxxxD as it was cheaper to leave some in then rip it all out. In 1928 the District ran 40TPH at a nominal 90 second headway with 30 second dwell time on the roads between Mansion House and South Kensington, this being achieved by careful positioning of signals to maintain as far as possible an even spacing between trains and multiple home signals to speed station approaches. Interval headways with regard to home signals were given as follows at the time; Single Home - 67 secs, Two Homes - 59 secs, Three Homes - 56 secs, Four Homes - 54 secs. In one special traffic test in a four home signal location 43TPH was achieved i.e. 83 seconds headway when 30 trains passed through a station in 41 minutes 32 seconds. I don't believe that speed control signalling using inductors was around then, however, I stand to be corrected as I don't know.
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