metman
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Post by metman on Jun 2, 2013 19:35:31 GMT
I think the most simple short term solution would be to add a passing loop back at Bricket Wood and run two trains say to Euston in the peak period. The train would run as four cars but would call at Park St, How Wood, Bricket Wood, Garston, North Watford and London Euston Only!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2013 22:50:04 GMT
I think the most simple short term solution would be to add a passing loop back at Bricket Wood and run two trains say to Euston in the peak period. The train would run as four cars but would call at Park St, How Wood, Bricket Wood, Garston, North Watford and London Euston Only! Sadly, it ain't that simple. Before that can happen, the line must be resignalled. Then there remains the issue of a 4-car unit running on the WCML which is tight for paths during the peaks. The idea that a new section running over to the TL line for a passenger interchange is, I submit, the best. It involves a lot more investment. The best way forward as a first stage - probably is to signal the line with a wireless system, instal the loop at an island platform, and run two three-car units at 20 min intervals. To this arrangement is added a connecting bus service from Abbey via Town Centre to City, with through ticketing.
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Post by mrjrt on Jun 2, 2013 23:27:48 GMT
As mentioned elsewhere...I still fail to see why a heavy-rail loop would be more expensive than conversion to light rail...you do not need full signalling - this is a myth!
Ingredients: A pair of spring-loaded points, Some plain line for the second platform road, A pair of physical tokens, A second lump of concrete - aka. Platform 2, A method of accessing platform 2 - be it a footbridge, a second entrance, or a foot-level manual crossing, ...and of course, a second train!
With the line divided into two sections a driver only has authority to enter a section when they possess the token for said section, these tokens are exchanged at Bricket Wood. Job done.
When only a single train is in operation (i.e. off-peak), driver has both tokens. Job done.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2013 4:46:21 GMT
As mentioned elsewhere...I still fail to see why a heavy-rail loop would be more expensive than conversion to light rail...you do not need full signalling - this is a myth! Ingredients: A pair of spring-loaded points, Some plain line for the second platform road, A pair of physical tokens, A second lump of concrete - aka. Platform 2, A method of accessing platform 2 - be it a footbridge, a second entrance, or a foot-level manual crossing, ...and of course, a second train! With the line divided into two sections a driver only has authority to enter a section when they possess the token for said section, these tokens are exchanged at Bricket Wood. Job done. When only a single train is in operation (i.e. off-peak), driver has both tokens. Job done. Jamie - the signalling would be needed if through operations to Euston were mixed in with the local shuttle, as proposed upthread. I wonder if the safeworking system you have described can be used for a new installation, given the Elfins.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jun 4, 2013 18:22:19 GMT
I don't see why it wouldn't be allowed, given that it's just a physical version of the RETB/ETRMS tokens used on rural lines in Scotland and Wales and physical tokens have over a century of proven safe use. Actually, how much work (and money) would it be to install an electronic token system on a short line like this? Obviously it would impose a restriction that only fitted units were permitted on the branch.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2013 2:30:28 GMT
Unfortunately when. Heatlh & Stupiity get involved the budget goes through the roof and bad solutions are provided. The loop at Penryn on the Falmouth Branch is a perfect example of this.
XF
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2013 9:19:54 GMT
To the best of my knowledge the only place the electronic tablet system is still used is up in Scotland somewhere, everywhere else it's been replaced and I think it's very unlikely Network Rail are going to re-introduce an out-dated system.
Most changes to signalling systems and working practices have been introduced after an accident, you might call it Health and Stupidity, I'd call it staying alive and in one piece.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2013 10:40:57 GMT
To the best of my knowledge the only place the electronic tablet system is still used is up in Scotland somewhere, everywhere else it's been replaced and I think it's very unlikely Network Rail are going to re-introduce an out-dated system. Most changes to signalling systems and working practices have been introduced after an accident, you might call it Health and Stupidity, I'd call it staying alive and in one piece. "electronic tablet system" - is that the RETB (Radio Electronic Token Block) system?
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Jun 5, 2013 13:26:03 GMT
Isn't ETRMS just an updated version of RETB?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2013 17:04:05 GMT
To the best of my knowledge the only place the electronic tablet system is still used is up in Scotland somewhere, everywhere else it's been replaced and I think it's very unlikely Network Rail are going to re-introduce an out-dated system. Most changes to signalling systems and working practices have been introduced after an accident, you might call it Health and Stupidity, I'd call it staying alive and in one piece. The Penryn loop is stupidity personified. Trains pass on the wrong side use a single platform even though the other platform is still in situ (but in need of repairs) but it requires a footbridge to be built!. Most of the used platform face is fenced off so that trains longer than 3 cars could not use it and most of the station car park has been sold off and is now student flats. XF
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Post by andypurk on Jun 5, 2013 20:17:52 GMT
As mentioned elsewhere...I still fail to see why a heavy-rail loop would be more expensive than conversion to light rail...you do not need full signalling - this is a myth! Ingredients: A pair of spring-loaded points, Some plain line for the second platform road, A pair of physical tokens, A second lump of concrete - aka. Platform 2, A method of accessing platform 2 - be it a footbridge, a second entrance, or a foot-level manual crossing, ...and of course, a second train! With the line divided into two sections a driver only has authority to enter a section when they possess the token for said section, these tokens are exchanged at Bricket Wood. Job done. When only a single train is in operation (i.e. off-peak), driver has both tokens. Job done. Token exchange is not a quick process, with a modern EMU, so some of the gains of installing the loop will be lost from the time taken. Token machines would be needed, otherwise the first train of the day would have both tokens and there would be no way for a second train to pick up the Watford - Bricket Wood token. Use of tokens is normally linked with signaling, the token needs to be taken out of the machine before the signal controlling entry to the single track section is cleared, I don't know of any Network Rail token operated lines which don't have signaling. Tokenless block would almost certainly be cheaper and certainly quicker to operate as well as being more flexible. Also the light rail solution might not need a second platform, as the Penryn solution (actually a good idea which saved a lot of money and doubled the frequency of a busy branch) could be used given that the trains would be shorter.
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Post by andypurk on Jun 5, 2013 20:30:34 GMT
The Penryn loop is stupidity personified. Trains pass on the wrong side use a single platform even though the other platform is still in situ (but in need of repairs) but it requires a footbridge to be built!. Most of the used platform face is fenced off so that trains longer than 3 cars could not use it and most of the station car park has been sold off and is now student flats. XF Given that the maximum length of the trains along the branch is 3 cars (due to other short platforms) what is the problem with restricting the length of available platform to 3 cars? The loop itself is longer, so doesn't rule out running longer trains.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2013 23:03:42 GMT
The Penryn loop is stupidity personified. Trains pass on the wrong side use a single platform even though the other platform is still in situ (but in need of repairs) but it requires a footbridge to be built!. Most of the used platform face is fenced off so that trains longer than 3 cars could not use it and most of the station car park has been sold off and is now student flats. XF Given that the maximum length of the trains along the branch is 3 cars (due to other short platforms) what is the problem with restricting the length of available platform to 3 cars? The loop itself is longer, so doesn't rule out running longer trains. Given that their is a University near by where there could be the potential for longer trains occasionally so it makes no sense at all to fence off over a third of the platform face. What is the fences purpose and what if anything are they tying to protect or is the Jubilee going to extended to Cornwall? XF
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2013 1:18:07 GMT
Given that the maximum length of the trains along the branch is 3 cars (due to other short platforms) what is the problem with restricting the length of available platform to 3 cars? The loop itself is longer, so doesn't rule out running longer trains. Given that their is a University near by where there could be the potential for longer trains occasionally so it makes no sense at all to fence off over a third of the platform face. What is the fences purpose and what if anything are they tying to protect or is the Jubilee going to extended to Cornwall? XF You need to think like a lawyer, XF. If by not fencing an unused area for which there are no funds for maintenance, and some Darwinian gets injured or worse - guess what? Yes, lawyers make a lot of money. The taxpayer loses, and funds for better services are drained away. This can be by direct liability, or through increased insurance costs. Remember the guard convicted of manslaughter because a well tanked Darwinian female staggered into the gap between two cars of a train he had just cleared to start - she was minced, apparently - and he was convicted. Sounds like a crock of @#$%^ to me - but with a legal system like that, who wouldn't watch their rear?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2013 7:02:24 GMT
Given that their is a University near by where there could be the potential for longer trains occasionally so it makes no sense at all to fence off over a third of the platform face. What is the fences purpose and what if anything are they tying to protect or is the Jubilee going to extended to Cornwall? XF You need to think like a lawyer, XF. If by not fencing an unused area for which there are no funds for maintenance, and some Darwinian gets injured or worse - guess what? Yes, lawyers make a lot of money. The taxpayer loses, and funds for better services are drained away. This can be by direct liability, or through increased insurance costs. Remember the guard convicted of manslaughter because a well tanked Darwinian female staggered into the gap between two cars of a train he had just cleared to start - she was minced, apparently - and he was convicted. Sounds like a crock of @#$%^ to me - but with a legal system like that, who wouldn't watch their rear? Maybe we should change the well known "Mind The Doors" warning to "Mind The Lawyers"! XF
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Post by grahamhewett on Jun 6, 2013 8:40:22 GMT
That would fit with the latest plans for the OLO vehicle (one lawyer operated).
GH
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Post by andypurk on Jun 6, 2013 9:23:02 GMT
Given that the maximum length of the trains along the branch is 3 cars (due to other short platforms) what is the problem with restricting the length of available platform to 3 cars? The loop itself is longer, so doesn't rule out running longer trains. Given that their is a University near by where there could be the potential for longer trains occasionally so it makes no sense at all to fence off over a third of the platform face. What is the fences purpose and what if anything are they tying to protect or is the Jubilee going to extended to Cornwall? XF Having a short platform face still doesn't stop then running longer trains. If said longer train had to pass another at the station, then it would be limited to 3 cars of platform anyway, so the section of platform by the points is of little use. The fence seems to be there to stop people waiting in the wrong place for their train, on the unrefurbished part of the original platform.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2013 10:56:44 GMT
Given that their is a University near by where there could be the potential for longer trains occasionally so it makes no sense at all to fence off over a third of the platform face. What is the fences purpose and what if anything are they tying to protect or is the Jubilee going to extended to Cornwall? XF Having a short platform face still doesn't stop then running longer trains. If said longer train had to pass another at the station, then it would be limited to 3 cars of platform anyway, so the section of platform by the points is of little use. The fence seems to be there to stop people waiting in the wrong place for their train, on the unrefurbished part of the original platform. But the longer trains would have to have selective door opening and all of the platform at Penryn has been refurbished with fencing installed at the outer platform face which is a total waste of money. Anyway we are going off topic - Let's hope common sense prevails on the St Albans Abbey branch! XF
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2013 22:22:54 GMT
That would fit with the latest plans for the OLO vehicle (one lawyer operated). GH One lawyer - hmmmphh! - plus clerk, filing assistant, secretary, legal researcher ..... ...... .......
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