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Post by melikepie on Mar 23, 2013 17:10:28 GMT
Someone raised this in a District Line thread. If there was a new line or even, if you could change the current LU colouring scheme, which line(s) would be changed, what colour(s) would the line(s) be and why?
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Post by crusty54 on Mar 23, 2013 17:53:59 GMT
As long as vitreous enamel (effectively glass fused onto steel) is used for signage there is a limited colour palette that can be used.
When you are producing the line diagrams for platforms the firing order has be carefully managed as colours are applied and fired one at a time. Each time the panel goes in the furnace the colours change.
Pale green was allocated for the Chelsea - Hackney line and therefore still available
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Post by melikepie on Mar 23, 2013 19:58:25 GMT
Could someone move this topic to the Railway Proposals area? I posted here by accident
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Post by londonstuff on Mar 23, 2013 20:37:52 GMT
As it is, the thread is discussing possible new colours of lines that are somewhat likely to be built, e.g. Northern extension, discussions about Chelsea to Hackney which is still, I believe, safeguarded. I therefore think that the thread in the right place for now but it might well be moved in the future if it goes off into the realm of fantasy 
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Post by crusty54 on Mar 24, 2013 5:35:37 GMT
As it is, the thread is discussing possible new colours of lines that are somewhat likely to be built, e.g. Northern extension, discussions about Chelsea to Hackney which is still, I believe, safeguarded. I therefore think that the thread in the right place for now but it might well be moved in the future if it goes off into the realm of fantasy Chelsea - Hackney will be part of Crossrail so colour is freed up. The Northern line extension will be no different from the rest of the line so the pale green is available for any totally different line. |
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Post by grahamhewett on Mar 24, 2013 8:41:39 GMT
Chelsea-Hackney will have no more to do with CrossRail operationally or in any other way than the Bakerloo has to do with the Piccadilly. Calling it Crossrail2 is no more than calling the Jubilee a tube line...
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class411
Operations: Normal
Posts: 2,747 
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Post by class411 on Mar 24, 2013 8:52:55 GMT
What type of signage is still produced using enamelling?
I'm sure there is still quite a lot around but given the frequency with which the diagram changes nowadays I would have thought they would have moved to a less expensive and more flexible process given that the useful life of any given sign (if they care to keep it up to date) is now rather limited.
I don't know what others think but I find that the current diagram is very cluttered and no where near as clear as Beck's original masterpiece.
I'd like to see LU produce a diagram with just the 'real' LU lines and less cruft. (To be used in conjunction with a separate one with all lines and features.)
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Post by grahamhewett on Mar 24, 2013 10:08:35 GMT
What type of signage is still produced using enamelling? I'm sure there is still quite a lot around but given the frequency with which the diagram changes nowadays I would have thought they would have moved to a less expensive and more flexible process given that the useful life of any given sign (if they care to keep it up to date) is now rather limited. I don't know what others think but I find that the current diagram is very cluttered and no where near as clear as Beck's original masterpiece. I'd like to see LU produce a diagram with just the 'real' LU lines and less cruft. (To be used in conjunction with a separate one with all lines and features.) I agree that the present map is getting cluttered - it's also inconsistent from the punters' point of view, there is no difference between Lorol and the suburban parts of many of the TOCs, especially south of the river; yet the LOROL routes are picked out separately. In NSE days, we tried to tidy the whole thing up by producing two versions of the map a tube + map which showed LU in its proper colours and the mainline network as a greyedout background, and a rail+ version which showed the mainline suburban routes coloured by terminus, with the tube as a background. The functional distinction was clear - the tube offered a completely different type of service to the mainline network. Unfortunately, that evolved into the London Connexions map by which time there was no longer any single body responsible coordinating transport in London. |
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Post by londonstuff on Mar 24, 2013 11:20:44 GMT
Slightly o/t but I wonder what happened to all the enamelled signs when the Circle line was changed into its present form of having Hammersmith terminators. They must have been kept for a while at least because of all the naysayers shouting that it'd never work but I wonder if they're still in storage at a depot somewhere...
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 24, 2013 14:22:53 GMT
Chelsea-Hackney will have no more to do with CrossRail operationally or in any other way than the Bakerloo has to do with the Piccadilly. Calling it Crossrail2 is no more than calling the Jubilee a tube line... But TfL are hardly consistent here - The Underground uses eleven colours, although five lines (the SSL and Picadilly) share substantial lengths of track. The DLR uses just one despite there being about six services, each sharing tracks with some or all of the others. The Overground uses just one colour, although it operates are four separate services with no tracks in common and only four interchange points between them. So who knows with Crossrail - it could be added to the Overground system, shown as one colour (with CR2 either as the same or another colour) or, following the SSL pattern, CR1 could istelf be two colours (Heathrow-Abbey Wood, Maidenhead to Shenfield) |
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Post by mikebuzz on Mar 24, 2013 16:05:55 GMT
^^I think CR2 will be distinct enough from CR1, and big enough a scheme, to get its own colour if one is available. DLR covers a limited area and it and LO have lots of overlapping services. I think you could make a case for LO being branded 2-4 separate colours and the branding merged with the sub-surface network (Met and District etc).
Does anyone know how metallic colours/metal colours are affected by the enamelling process?
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Post by grahamhewett on Mar 24, 2013 17:54:17 GMT
mikebuzz - I agree with you; I hope you are right. LOROL is an especially bad case as at first glance, the circular route doesn't seem like that at all. I also think that norbiton flyer has a point - TfL (stress TfL not LU) have been very inconsistent about this and distinguished between operators and not routes, leading to the incoherent presentation of both DLR and LOROL; frankly, the punters couldn't care less about who operates the train; they just want to know where its going and for it to arrive on time... The serious riak is that we end up with London's rail network being presented as a series of silo systems.
GH
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Post by phillw48 on Mar 24, 2013 21:52:44 GMT
Instead of using a 'block' of colour as at present could not the different lines use a pattern to distinguish them from the Underground? for example Crossrail could be shown as XXXXXXXXXXXX instead of a solid line and Overground shown as a chequer board pattern. This would enable the same colours to be used on the map to represent the different modes.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 24, 2013 22:49:20 GMT
Instead of using a 'block' of colour as at present could not the different lines use a pattern to distinguish them from the Underground? . DLR does this already of course |
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Post by crusty54 on Mar 26, 2013 18:56:41 GMT
The Crossrails will be hollow line as with Overground.
Vitreous enamel is glass so colours are only dyes so the palette is fairly basic.
When the colours are applied they are not the same as the finished colour. Firing at over 800 degrees achieves long lasting finishes.
VE is still specified because it meets fire safety standards and does not fade like plastics and vinyls.
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Post by Alight on Mar 26, 2013 22:27:32 GMT
Pale green was allocated for the Chelsea - Hackney line and therefore still available Very true. They've used orange in the past to show the Northern line split, but of course orange is now used by the LO. The only other colour left that is obvious is mauve; that is to say, a moderate purple somewhere between the H&C's pink and the Metropolitan line's plum. |
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Post by mikebuzz on Mar 27, 2013 19:46:41 GMT
lilac and mauve if obviously light and dark, Kahki too. if the Bakerloo's brown is lightened or darkened there could be 2 browns. Anything else is not as easy for people to differentiate. Dark turquoise? Magenta? I'll ask again: what about metallic colours (i.e. metallic blue, gold etc)?
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Post by crusty54 on Mar 27, 2013 20:38:22 GMT
Metallic colours are not possible. They would melt.
Very hard to differentiate between Bakerloo & Met colours with dyes that are available
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Mar 27, 2013 21:08:24 GMT
Extend the Northern Line further north > > >
then you could use tartan!
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Post by Dstock7080 on Mar 27, 2013 22:02:42 GMT
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Post by mikebuzz on Mar 28, 2013 1:11:24 GMT
^^Including the Underground lines, LO and the new Crossrail colour I make it 13 to Paris's 14 and I think the London colours are far more distinct.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Mar 28, 2013 6:36:40 GMT
^^Including the Underground lines, LO and the new Crossrail colour I make it 13 to Paris's 14 and I think the London colours are far more distinct. Paris metro map has sixteen metro lines (includfing 3bis and 7bis), five RER lines, two tram lines , and also shows the main lines , which isn a total of 24 to London's 12 (13 with Crossrail) |
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Post by melikepie on Mar 28, 2013 20:53:15 GMT
If you add in Tramlink's lines and split the various LO lines London then comes closer to 20. It would probably be good to colour each of those. How about instead of using solid lines, use two parallel lines similat to how the DLR looks or use other patterns. That opens up the floor immensely although it may have the chance of confusing someone even more.
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Post by Alight on Mar 28, 2013 23:25:53 GMT
Dark turquoise? Magenta? I'll ask again: what about metallic colours (i.e. metallic blue, gold etc)? It depends how you define magenta; I think of it as a pink (CMYK printing process) but TfL think of the Metropolitan line's plum as 'Corporate Magenta'. Dark turquoise would probably be too confused with the DLR's teal. Metallic colours are an interesting idea but would be too problematic (and expensive) to print. |
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Post by mikebuzz on Mar 29, 2013 0:54:53 GMT
It depends how you define magenta; I think of it as a pink (CMYK printing process) but TfL think of the Metropolitan line's plum as 'Corporate Magenta'. Dark turquoise would probably be too confused with the DLR's teal. Perhaps make the Met a bit more crimson again, then a slightly lighter ('brilliant') magenta and the pink should be distinct enough. The trick is to shift existing colours to see if others can be slotted in - with any off-colour influence helping, e.g. making DLR more dark green/grey and adding turquoise. You could lighten the Jub and slot in a dark grey, maybe a buff that's distinct enough etc. You could have a filled in orange and teal for tube lines and hollow ones for LO and DLR but there aren't the lines at the moment. ^^Including the Underground lines, LO and the new Crossrail colour I make it 13 to Paris's 14 and I think the London colours are far more distinct. Paris metro map has sixteen metro lines (includfing 3bis and 7bis), five RER lines, two tram lines , and also shows the main lines , which isn a total of 24 to London's 12 (13 with Crossrail) The metro lines indexed on the linked websites were 14. The map has 16, yes, but those are even less distinct, e.g. 7bis and 6, 13 and 3bis. The 2 tramways are broken line versions of lines 4 and 2. The RER's shown just use the same colours but different line thickness, the national rail routes aren't even coloured in. You could certainly have about 16 separate colours. I wonder if a) Crossrail will actually be on the map (it will be partly TfL) and b) will it get the thick line treatment like the RER does. |
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