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Post by stevo on Mar 7, 2013 9:40:12 GMT
It was in January 2003 London Underground Limited became a wholly owned subsidiary of Transport for London. What do the professionals on here think about Transport for London's performance in respect of the LUL network? How would London Underground Limited have performed if London Regional Transport had survived - bearing in mind that the JLE was already up and running prior to LRT's demise. Is it still the case that revenue from passenger fares allegedly cover 86% of LUL's operational costs?
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Post by revupminster on Mar 7, 2013 11:13:29 GMT
The underground has been basically state owned since 1933 (I stand to be corrected on that) and until the 1960s the buses subsidised the Underground. From the 70's the situation was reversed. The biggest mistake was to allow the underground and buses to come under the elected GLC and become a political tool every four years when pensioners were bribed with more improvements to what initially was an off-peak BUS pass to an all singing transport pass that is the envy of every pensioner who lives outside the dreamland of London.
Boris so desperate for something to offer at the last election brought in the over 60's pass instead of letting the pass rise with the raising of the pension age as outside London. What is left for the next election for pensioners in London except free one way flights to Switzerland and the Soylent Green institute.
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Mar 7, 2013 11:46:45 GMT
The reason why this is a VERY interesting question is that some of the biggest mistakes over the years (not necessarily just the last 10), are mistakes because of things they HAVEN'T done.
It's easier to do nothing, and nobody ever lost their job for NOT spending money. It's easier to keep a low profile, then collect an index-linked pension for hiding behind a desk for 30 years, than to come up with an idea that might turn out to cost a bit of money, irrespective of the benefit to travellers
Part of the problem is "short term thinking". It's a curse.
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Post by stevo on Mar 7, 2013 12:01:36 GMT
Always wondered how things would have panned out if Bromley Council had not mounted the legal action against the Fares Fair policy.
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Post by railtechnician on Mar 7, 2013 12:14:20 GMT
The PPP was a massive faux pas and of course it is a little longer than 10 years ago. The partial privatisation of LU began in the 1980s with elements such as power generation & distribution, advertising and data networking being outsourced and LU staff being transferred under TUPE rules. The PPP was a variation on a theme and cemented the fragmentation of LUL into separate lines with differing ideas in each about the way to operate. The corporate image was a facade of unity covering the cracks in the multiplicity of departments and contractors involved in the planning, maintenance and operation of what once had been a well managed public service but which was ruined by politicians who starved it of funds and bad management in some areas as a result of the ridiculous way in which taxpayers money was allocated each year. Like many nationalised industries LU seemed to waste resources at times and the internal market made a mockery of realistic accounting and budgetting year in year out. I have always felt that a better way than the PPP would've been for the board and senior management to stand up to the government as regards finance and to become more efficient at all levels of the business but my recollection is that the only person who could have achieved that and took his ideas to the government of the day was rejected out of hand because the politicians had already decided to wash their hands and get LUL off the visible treasury balance sheet. Passing LU to Ken Livingstone simply created a wedge between the operating department and much of the rest of the business and gave the media plenty to shout about whenever there was an engineering problem. It also gave the RMT a platform to villify its own members who were no longer 'in the fold' having been 'sold' to the highest bidder. From 1992 to 2002 the system was run down wholesale in the reorganisation to lines and hundreds of staff were given severance before those left were transferred to Tube Lines and Metronet. Thousands of years of experience went with them, and in my opinion that set back LU engineering 10 years. The company has simply forgotten how to get work done safely and efficiently without endless disruption to services which once upon a time simply would not have been tolerated by senior management let alone the travelling public. Now things appear to be completing the circle as engineering is being brought back in house to a large extent but in terms of operational efficiency LU is just a shadow of what LT Underground once was. It took over 100 years to build an efficient Underground network but it took less than 10 years to destroy it, only time will tell if it will be as good as it once was but it never will be as long as it is run as a business rather than a public service!
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Post by stevo on Mar 7, 2013 12:54:30 GMT
Thanks for filling in some gaps railtechnician.
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Post by grahamhewett on Mar 7, 2013 12:59:30 GMT
Stevo, I believe the answer is more complex than at first appears. When we re-nationalised the Executive in 1983, LTE was still a unified organisation very clearly led from the centre which imposed standards and formulated long term plans and despite Ken's dislike of LT management, that ethos had survived since it was first put under the GLC. The GLC itself had a very weak capability in the matter of transport operations and the development of public transport (effectively only two staff working on rail development, in fact). Splitting off the buses (as preparation to deregulation and selling off) and tubes into separate companies led to the central capability of LRT being run down dramatically. The assumption by Ridley, the then Secretary of State, was that development of the bus network would be a commercial thing as it was elsewhere, and that the tube could be left to maunder along with as little investment as possible; Ridley was very clear that with a declining population in London, there was no need for forward planning. LRT(A) was emphatically not to have a statutory duty to consider the future, unlike LT. Privatisation would have happened if the Prime Minister of the day hadn't set her face against rail privatisation generally. What then happened was really twenty lost years during which nothing of any great significance was done, apart from some inevitable rolling stock replacement. When control was given back to the GLA, there was no longer any "head" left from the former LTE, only its limbs, one of which had gone its own way in developing plans and the other of which had been sacrificed on the altar of PFI/PPP. The new TfL "head" has very wide responsibilities and its components (LU, London Buses, London Rail etc) work in silos. Corporate leadership comes from Finance, not planning and until Ken disappeared was characterised by an intense dislike of LU management, and a clear preference for London Rail and DLR (helped by the presence of smiler Ian Brown, the man we booted out of BR for losing 500 big ones on Frightliner).
Despite all this, LU began to pick up some of the forward looking threads in the '90s with the study of Hackney-Chelsea, and the possible extension of a tube line along the Lea Valley slow lines, only to be run over by the politicians yet again with transfer to the GLA. Had it persisted - to answer Stevo's original question - there is little doubt it would have begun to behave like BR did before it was broken up, formulating new technical initiatives and subject to the same financial disciplines - just as BR was about to come out of grant at the time of privatisation, so too would the tube eventually. The killer would have been if - as happened with the national rail network - an attempt had been made to write back all the capital value of the tubes into their books, despite the bizarre discussions that took place in 1983 to do just that. There would be no chance of ever servicing that cost, as there isn't with the rail network. In some ways, the tube PPP/PFI was an alternative approach to doing that.
Sorry if this is a bit lengthy as an answer...
GH
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2013 13:14:01 GMT
In the early 1980s a London bus driver earned about the same as a tube driver. Now after privatisation a Jubilee line tube driver earns more than double the bus driver, does less hours and doesn't normally have to drive the thing!
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Post by stevo on Mar 7, 2013 13:41:26 GMT
I wasn't aware that there was ever - in living memory - a declining population in London. I had thought only of a decline in the use of public transport due to unreliability and congestion. Ridley seemed totally unconcerned with London's public transport as he was giving his attention to the Miner's Strike and his Ridley Plan. It is hard to understand how anybody could believe that a rail network could possibly survive and fulfill its purpose without investment. Such short sightedness. I believe that the first GLA administration made great advances with London's tube and rail whereas the subsequent administration has achieved little other than allowing ongoing projects to continue without too much interference Thank you for your very useful and helpful answer grahamhewett
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2013 13:42:43 GMT
The constant undermining of skills and experience in regards to promotion meaning far too many people in supervisory and management roles have no understanding of the jobs of those below them and are scared to take responsibility for decisions so avoid making them good and experienced staff left stagnating in roles in which they then become demotivated contracts being poorly managed so contractors can charge huge sums for minor work and the constant obsession with scorecards meaning services often seem to be designed to meet those targets rather providing a service and info to the passenger
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Post by grahamhewett on Mar 7, 2013 14:25:24 GMT
Stevo - between the Abercrombie Plan and about the late-70s, London's population fell from about 8.2m to about 6.9m (if I remember correctly) with the biggest losses in the inner boroughs such as Wandsworth, where I seem to recall the population fell by about 1/3). A lot of the earlier losses reflected the New Towns' creation and also the LCC's own decanting plans at Hook; later there were a number of initiatives to decentralise employment to places such as Basingstoke and Swindon. wonderwaller - this is exactly also the problem we faced in the rail industry when the IMCOs had been sold to the likes of Balfours - the new management had no idea what they had bought and so stuck closely to the letter of any contract, not having the knowledge, experience or confidence to know any different. The previous managers had seen the writing on the wall and all taken early retirement, taking their accumulated knowledge with them.
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Mar 7, 2013 14:55:58 GMT
Just to add a little to Graham's excellent comments, it should also be borne in mind that population centres within London have shifted beyond recognition in recent years. The "East End" around what is known as 'Docklands' today were exceptionally high density residential areas. Now Docklands is heavily mixed/commercial with a far lower residential, so the tidal flow is now totally different. There were also major residential working class areas around Kings Cross, Paddington Battersea etc, but these have mostly all gone now.
Alternatively, London has spread out to fill the GLC area. Even in 1950, Greenford was the furthest extent of London between Greenford and Ruislip, and along the Ruislip Road, there were green fields between Greenford and Yeading. Uxbridge was still a rural market town with L.T. rural timetables issued until about 1955. It is simlar for a lot of outer suburbia within what is now the GLA area. I can remember 60 years ago that few people commuted from as far out as Dorking, there was no need, even City Bank managers had wonderful homes with enormous gardens around Epsom. Then people started "moving out" as Graham has alluded to. Towns such as Southall have seen their populations more than double since the war ended in 1945, but people have moved out of the inner City as rents and land prices made it unaffordable for ordinary people.
Whereas it is easy to re-design/re-plan a bus route, it is not so easy with a railway line. The 60s were a disaster because the outer London rail lines were often shut down (Beeching PLan) just as the population in the areas they once served increased. And because of various "corrupt people" , these lines were not safeguarded as they should have been.
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Post by railtechnician on Mar 7, 2013 15:18:13 GMT
The constant undermining of skills and experience in regards to promotion meaning far too many people in supervisory and management roles have no understanding of the jobs of those below them and are scared to take responsibility for decisions so avoid making them good and experienced staff left stagnating in roles in which they then become demotivated contracts being poorly managed so contractors can charge huge sums for minor work and the constant obsession with scorecards meaning services often seem to be designed to meet those targets rather providing a service and info to the passenger That comment is spot on, it's exactly what I both saw and experienced although personally I was always motivated because I really enjoyed the many roles and projects that I undertook unlike a number of my former colleagues.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2013 15:39:21 GMT
Transport for London was a step in the right direction I think, the only problem I have with it is the fact its adgenda is influenced by the mayor. This can be a mixed blessing.
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Post by metrailway on Mar 7, 2013 16:35:21 GMT
grahamhewettWas there any reasoning behind Ken's dislike of LT/LU management?
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Post by grahamhewett on Mar 7, 2013 17:09:41 GMT
metrailway - not sure - probably a union-related thing, although the attitude of certain senior LT managers was hardly helpful - on re-nationalisation, one of them had the temerity to remark that LT had seen off the LCC and the GLC and would see off the DTP, no doubt as well; the same very senior official also remarked that renewal of the Central Line fleet was such an important matter that it would require a Cabinet decision (it didn't come close). If Ken had encountered such attitudes, then few could blame him. Indeed, the crass arrogance and anti-union elements may have worked together to create a climate of, shall we say, mistrust. GH
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Post by stevo on Mar 8, 2013 6:35:34 GMT
I must say grahamhewett has taught me rather a lot on this thread and so I must express my heartfelt thanks to him although I am grateful to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I think wonderwaller's comment about top heavy management applies to most public bodies. Jobs for the boys. Putting inexperienced people into senior positions simply because of who they know. Whereas Ken's dislike of LT/LRT management was well known, I cannot help thinking that once the GLA came into being, Ken took a more active interest in London's transport as a whole than the current administration ever has. My fear is that we are working towards a time when the only LUL employees left with be T/Ops and those working on or about the track. Station staff will be supplied by private companies as a more economic option.
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Post by rheostar on Mar 8, 2013 9:24:25 GMT
My fear is that we are working towards a time when the only LUL employees left with be T/Ops and those working on or about the track. Station staff will be supplied by private companies as a more economic option. In twenty/thirty years time there probably won't be any T/Ops.
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Post by revupminster on Mar 8, 2013 10:49:39 GMT
My fear is that we are working towards a time when the only LUL employees left with be T/Ops and those working on or about the track. Station staff will be supplied by private companies as a more economic option. In twenty/thirty years time there probably won't be any T/Ops. It will be sooner than that. at a London Underground Society meeting a retired manager talked of leaving stations unmanned during operating hours and unlocked at night on the Northern line. my own experirnce on the District line was that they used to at least lock the station using the next one along the line. I seem to remember one Boxing Day one supervisor had the keys and drove along opening all the stations between Upminster Bridge and Upney.
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Mar 8, 2013 11:02:24 GMT
I had heard from internal sources that stations on the Northern were already being locked up by private security after traffic end? This was probably over a year ago now...
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Post by snoggle on Mar 8, 2013 14:42:15 GMT
Having read the preceding comments I do wonder if we are talking about the same organisation that I worked for for 26 years. There seems to be a great nostalgia for old world London Transport. That era died a long time ago because of wider trends that resulted in patronage loss, a decline in revenue and thus difficulties in justifying investment expenditure. People blame politicians for the damage to the organisation but transport in London has always had a political dimension - the extent has just varied over the decades. The same applies to the main line railways. A whole pile of factors, and not just the populist "PPP / PFI are evil" ones, contributed to changes to the London Transport organisation. London Underground had itself tried all sorts of management approaches with divisions, groups of lines, individual line and the service delivery unit concepts all happening during my time. Moving to individual line management with their own engineering resources created fifedoms and "competitive" approaches to the same problems rather than consistency. PPP can be criticised for all sorts of reasons but at least it reunited much, but not all, of the engineering resource.
If I go back to the question and what mistakes have TfL made then I would cite two or three major issues. I do, in part, agree with Graham Hewitt's observations about the effect of the late integration of LU into TfL. That has to be set in the context of the government deliberately holding on the LU until the PPP deals were executed. Ken Livingstone vehemently opposed the PPP and, by inference, the government and the LU management that he saw as "doing the government's bidding". We went through the infamous "dullard" episode where every manager in LU was tarred with the same brush. Obviously there were one or two "high profile casualties" when Ken eventually took over but the majority of people remained in post and suddenly were no longer "dullards". Perhaps I am too sensitive but I resented being called a "dullard" by a politician I had never met. TfL naturally enough adopted the negative view until such time as it got control of LU but it inherited a damaged and demotivated organisation partly resulting from its own (and the Mayor's actions). The main positive action after this time was recruiting Tim O'Toole as MD. He wasn't perfect, no one is, but IMO he was far and away the best MD I worked under. Unfortunately he went after about 6 years with his task incomplete.
The other mistake TfL made was not being sufficiently forceful about rationalising its organisation quickly to get rid of duplication. I'm not convinced it is as efficient and streamlined as it needs to be despite Horizon etc. Certainly the Tories on the Assembly are not convinced and I suspect that is also true of the other politicians. I fully support having a centralised transport organisation for a city like London but it does need, in these straitened times, to show that it as efficient and streamlined as possible. I see LU is increasing its headcount by another 250 people in the next year - this after culling people, myself included, after 3 successive years of reorganisation (guess what that did for morale). Where is the coherence and clear strategic direction? People might loathe the private sector approach of the old Tube Lines but when it reorganised itself (more than once) it did it within weeks and then concentrated on making the new structure. LU and TfL took months or even years to do the same thing with all the ensuing distraction that results from dragging such things out.
I would expect some people to consider TfL's stance of killing off the PPP and PFI to be popular. Strangly no one seems to have said so. No contractual arrangement is perfect but there does seem to be a failure to recognise that these deals did deliver substantial investment in a number of key asset areas. I doubt, given the way the political winds were blowing at the time, that LRT / LU would ever have been given the capital funding to deliver these projects themselves.
TfL has seemingly managed to get the Mayor (regardless of political persuasion) to acknowledge the need for the Tube to receive consistent investment and to get lines fully upgraded. We have to hope that that thinking is carried forward for the Piccadilly and Bakerloo lines and then the Central. It will be a key test of how TfL is viewed and if it is considered as a suitable organisation to be the steward of the Tube. Efficient, timely delivery of the Northern and Sub Surface upgrades will be the benchmark against which it is measured. I'm no longer an insider - I left a year ago having just had enough of being badly treated despite having been instrumental in delivering several big initiatives. I wish TfL well but it needs to sharpen its act some more to be able to survive the inevitable political attacks that I suspect are brewing right now. It also needs to be able to survive the inevitable departure of Sir Peter Hendy and the ensuing battle to replace him.
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Post by stevo on Mar 9, 2013 7:53:11 GMT
I'm a little puzzled by the claim that private security guards are now used to lock up stations. Assuming that the average time for shutting everything down at a station is 01:15 and the average time for testing escalators, ticket gates etc. prior to opening the station is 04:45 then surely the night Station Supervisor remains an essential part of the team. Referring to the beginning of snoggle's final paragraph, I am assuming it was Livingstone's crowd who devised the Tube Upgrade Plan and his successor would have been committing political suicide if he had significantly interfered with it. I have yet to be convinced that the current GLA admnistration have come up with any initiatives of their own in respect of LUL but are simply continuing what the previous administration began and will inevitably be given the credit for it when both Tube Upgrade and Crossrail are complete.
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Post by revupminster on Mar 9, 2013 11:53:54 GMT
I'm a little puzzled by the claim that private security guards are now used to lock up stations. Assuming that the average time for shutting everything down at a station is 01:15 and the average time for testing escalators, ticket gates etc. prior to opening the station is 04:45 then surely the night Station Supervisor remains an essential part of the team. Referring to the beginning of snoggle's final paragraph, I am assuming it was Livingstone's crowd who devised the Tube Upgrade Plan and his successor would have been committing political suicide if he had significantly interfered with it. I have yet to be convinced that the current GLA admnistration have come up with any initiatives of their own in respect of LUL but are simply continuing what the previous administration began and will inevitably be given the credit for it when both Tube Upgrade and Crossrail are complete. I am sure this only refers to open stations. Having said that the night supervisor has been only systemwide for the last 30 years. When the station inspector or foreman was late I've climbed over walls to get in because an emergency gate key was kept on the platform. Passengers such as postmen in the know have let me into stations. There were very few night supervisors on the District Line. Mile End had Station Masters but they all went home after the last train. Upney to Upminster Bridge was an exception because of the short gap between last and first train and BR had night staff when the Underground took over maanagement of the stations.
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Post by snoggle on Mar 9, 2013 13:13:46 GMT
Referring to the beginning of snoggle's final paragraph, I am assuming it was Livingstone's crowd who devised the Tube Upgrade Plan and his successor would have been committing political suicide if he had significantly interfered with it. I have yet to be convinced that the current GLA admnistration have come up with any initiatives of their own in respect of LUL but are simply continuing what the previous administration began and will inevitably be given the credit for it when both Tube Upgrade and Crossrail are complete. No it was not "Livingstone's crowd" that devised the Tube Upgrade Plan. It goes back a long way to the development of proper asset management plans and development of asset knowledge. LU realised 15-20 years ago that it needed a more formalised process to support investment and maintenance planning and to catch up with "good practice" outside of LU. Something called the "Long Term Trains Plan" then grew out of the improved asset knowledge and set forth a programme of line by line upgrades. The sequence of these plans was then formalised and incorporated into the programme of PPP Line upgrades. Those were specified in the context of train enhancements and journey time capability improvement targets. Clearly the collapse of Metronet brought Sub Surface and Victoria line upgrades back in house. A mini upgrade was delivered on the Central Line and a more substantive one on the Waterloo and City under the PPP regime. Metronet obviously started the Vic Line upgrade and LU simply finished off what was started. Sub Surface was subject to a much greater review by LU and this separated off the signalling contract which was retendered while new rolling stock delivery remained with Bombardier. Tube Lines delivered 7 car and then the Jubilee Line upgrade and is delivering the Northern Line upgrade. Clearly the concept of a PPP Line Upgrade (and other capital investment) has been "rebranded" to be the "Tube Upgrade Plan" but the roots of the plans go back a very long way and are not identified with any politician (IMO). What the politicians have done is recognise that it is politically toxic *for them* to allow the Tube to rot. Ken knew this and obviously went and got the money to push things forward even though he was saddled with the PPP regime which he loathed. I am not sure Boris quite appreciated the "toxicity" until 18 months before the 2012 Mayoral Election. At this time Tube performance was not particularly good and the Jubilee Line upgrade was still dragging along. It was around this time that he changed his Deputy Mayor for Transport from Mr Ranger to Ms Dedring. She worked out quickly that things had to be done to stop the Tube being a political millstone for Boris at the election and subsequently for the Olympics. Various initiatives suddenly sprang forth to force through specific improvements and greater accountability. To be fair it seems to have helped as the scale of delays is somewhat reduced and the Tube got through the Games with an enhanced reputation. It is a shame that it took Boris 2.5 years to realise he was not in sufficient control or suitably aware of the detail of Tube performance.
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