Today's problem with the Bakerloo

The specific point is that should an assault occur on board a train in a siding, not only is the driver stuck in a confined space with no means of escape, but assistance cannot easily be given.

Assistance can obviously be given far more easily on a platform, and as stated, with detrainment staff you always have two staff - the driver and the platform staff.

Yes the requirement to physically check the train was introduced following a specific and unrelated incident, but society has changed. As Phil hinted at, I was assaulted - knocked out as it happens - and all because of a group of people were holding my train doors open. That was on a platform and the train wasn't even being detrained!

There are some nasty people out there. What if someone was hell bent on committing an assault and realised that it would be very easy to commit assault on an LU staff member simply by staying on a train that goes into a siding. Worse still, what if a group of people decided to do that?

That is ASLEF's concern.

Again as has been said, ASLEF did raise their concerns through the proper channels & machinery before Christmas. Once it was found that LU wouldn't entertain ASLEF's concerns, ASLEF held a ballot of its Bakerloo line members to gain the mandate for "working to rule" (physically detrain all trains) which is required in the same way as for any type of industrial action. That all takes time to organise and there is a legal minimum notice period that has to be given to LU.

So whilst it may appear to you to have been an instant reaction by a union, it has actually followed much behind the scenes discussion as is the case with any industrial action that affects the public or becomes public knowledge.

Exactly.

Indeed. Go to any location where trains are detrained and go to a depot - granted mainly on Friday & Saturday nights - and see how much grief the drivers and station staff have to deal with......it shouldn't be routine but sadly it is.

This procedure was introduced on the Bakerloo line late in 2012. Are you getting confused with the Jubliee line which introduced this procedure some time ago? I'm not too sure whats happening on the Jubilee TBH though

Whilst it is quite right that LU have addressed the issue that created the need for physically checking all cars of a train prior to it entering a siding, the assault risk is now felt to be far higher than it was a decade ago.

Incidentally though, the physical checking of all cars isn't something LU did off its own back - they were forced to do it by HMRI/ORR. Obviously LU would have sought agreement that the modifications carried out now mean a physical check of the cars is no longer required. Staff safety in terms of the risk of an assault isn't down to HMRI/ORR, which is why we now have the industrial action.

Couple of things to add to Colin's post. The likelihood of assistance coming when on a train not at a platform is great that BTP PCSOs are issued handcuffs and this is there main reason for issue.

Also nowadays the ORR (pretty much what was HMRI) do not have to check a procedure that LU or any Operator wish to implement. There have been a number of recent events where LU have said that the ORR agree with them when in fact LU have just written to them. That's how things work nowadays!
Until sadly another death happens to someone that the media wish to follow nothing will change. I'd like to hope that nothing did go wrong.

I do take your point about being 'stuck' on a train with a potential assailant, especially if you have been assaulted yourself.



No, the procedure was changed late in 2011 or early in 2012, from when platform staff no longer searched the trains. There was a post about in the stations board:

www.districtdavesforum.co.uk/index.cgi?action=display&board=Stations&thread=18559&page=1

So, the question remains as to why has it taken around a year for ASLEF to raise their concerns?



But is the risk of assault really higher, or just perceived to be higher? Levels of violent crime, in general, seem to be falling, but countering this is the increase in passenger numbers, so it is a hard one to call.

I can well remember the fuss about the original incident at Liverpool Street. It is interesting to consider whether the HMRI made the correct choice back then. The impact on running the service seemed to be out of all proportion to the risk to passengers, especially given the possibility of modifications being made to the trains (as has occured more recently). If the incident hadn't happened (or had happened several years later as ALARP has become more accepted in the railway world), would trains still have been reversing in sidings without any full checks?

I'm trying to work out whether you're just being naïve or playing the devil's advocate - would you want to take that risk? I know I wouldn't. And don't forget we're not just talking a nice sunny Monday afternoon here, we're talking about Friday and Saturday nights. Couple that with the fact that drivers are of both sexes, of all different builds, etc. - why should someone even have the fear that there might be someone on their train who wants to bash them up, or worse.

I'm generally not in to strikes or industrial action but I think here Aslef are more than justified and completely in the right. In any case, it'll only take one driver to be assaulted like this and for it to end up in the ES before they take on detraining staff again. The pity will be that it'll take someone to be pretty badly asserted first.

See Colin's post above for the answer.

The negotiation machinery is not the quickest and that is why it has taken so long to get to where we are today. This hasn't just happened at a drop of a hat. The unions and management have gone through an agreed set schedule of meetings to try and resolve the issue before the union has taken it to their members for a ballot.

It certainly isn't everyone who falls asleep on the train, but it *does* happen, and not only isolated incidents. At least one member of this forum has been assaulted aboard an out-of-service train in a siding, and you read Colin's story above about being assaulted on a platform. This forum certainly does not contain anything close to a significant proportion of the t/ops/cleaners/other on train staff employed by London Underground. The risk cannot be ignored



I do not see any issues with this (those who actually have to do it very well might), if and only if this procedure is only used for reversing walk-through stock, with no emergency release for the doors accessible to the lay-passenger.

A passenger trapped aboard a train in a reversing siding may very well try to escape, especially if they can see through the window their driver leaving the train and walking back towards the station. It has been proven that tube stock fitted with inner inter-car barriers can be escaped from by those so inclined. It must not be possible for passengers to feel forced into taking a stroll on the WCML

Used to know a SS who carried a truncheon. As RT has said , there are many ways to skin a cat. Perhaps one of them would be the right of uniformed public servants to carry some kind of item for self defence. A cosh, or mace, or something.

The difference is the management all the way up to Boris are keeping very quiet, I wonder why?

Is this a hint for a member of the Forum who isn't a LUL employee to write to Boris?

No, because the t/ops have a strong case and are simply adhering to rules laid down by management.

yeah no money either but how much money is it costing the company to cancel 6 trains a day and pay drivers for doing nothing as there trains are sitting in the depots/sidings

These 'operational issues' are starting to really get annoying now - especially as they now seem to be affecting the morning peak too! I don't call a 6 min wait at peak time anything other than shocking on the line.

Also, I do wish TFL would actually tell the truth as to what the issue is!

Its like their in denial about the whole thing, either that or they are trying to insult customers intelligence by deliberately vague/misleading descriptions for what’s going on. Usually TfL will tell you when theres industrial action, but in this case, it seems as though they don't want anyone to know.

Here, here!