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Post by programmes1 on Jan 6, 2013 15:44:23 GMT
Can anyone explain why on various V frames there are more than one shaft for release? I was under the impression that it was to do with the number of contacts?
(I know that some had actual one for each direction) example being Barking station. The following have more than one; Acton Town East 36 shaft Turnham Green 24 shaft West Ken West 24 shaft Tower Hill 12 shaft Bromley 12 shaft
These have one Putney Bridge 12 shaft East Ham 12 shaft High St Ken 24 shaft
Gloucester Road 24 shaft has three (EB 2 shafts, WB 1 shaft)
South Ken 24 shaft has four (two for each direction)
Hope this makes sense.
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DWS
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Post by DWS on Jan 7, 2013 0:05:51 GMT
Barking LU Cabin controls 3 Interlocking Machines (IMR's)
Barking Main 12 Shafts commissioned 30.03.1960
Barking Sidings West 36 Shafts commissioned 30.03.1960
Barking Sidings East 24 Shafts commissioned 02.04.1960
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Post by railtechnician on Jan 7, 2013 0:31:44 GMT
Can anyone explain why on various V frames there are more than one shaft for release? I was under the impression that it was to do with the number of contacts? (I know that some had actual one for each direction) example being Barking station. The following have more than one; Acton Town East 36 shaft Turnham Green 24 shaft West Ken West 24 shaft Tower Hill 12 shaft Bromley 12 shaft These have one Putney Bridge 12 shaft East Ham 12 shaft High St Ken 24 shaft Gloucester Road 24 shaft has three (EB 2 shafts, WB 1 shaft) South Ken 24 shaft has four (two for each direction) Hope this makes sense. Yep two shafts mechanically coupled together with a single lever is the same as a single release shaft but having more contacts.
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Post by programmes1 on Jan 7, 2013 15:48:28 GMT
Barking LU Cabin controls 3 Interlocking Machines (IMR's) Barking Main 12 Shafts commissioned 30.03.1960 Barking Sidings West 36 Shafts commissioned 30.03.1960 Barking Sidings East 24 Shafts commissioned 02.04.1960 I know how many shafts there are it's about the release shafts.
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Post by programmes1 on Jan 7, 2013 15:53:34 GMT
Can anyone explain why on various V frames there are more than one shaft for release? I was under the impression that it was to do with the number of contacts? (I know that some had actual one for each direction) example being Barking station. The following have more than one; Acton Town East 36 shaft Turnham Green 24 shaft West Ken West 24 shaft Tower Hill 12 shaft Bromley 12 shaft These have one Putney Bridge 12 shaft East Ham 12 shaft High St Ken 24 shaft Gloucester Road 24 shaft has three (EB 2 shafts, WB 1 shaft) South Ken 24 shaft has four (two for each direction) Hope this makes sense. Yep two shafts mechanically coupled together with a single lever is the same as a single release shaft but having more contacts. RT Right so if it is to do with the contacts comparing Bromley with Putney both 12 shaft (DWS please note) Putney only has one release with one spare shaft and Bromley has two release shafts with 3 spare shafts, any idea why this would occur?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 7, 2013 17:29:46 GMT
I wonder if the only sure-fire way to answer this question would be to look at the bookwiring?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Jan 7, 2013 17:42:35 GMT
JNBX100 busbar loading?
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Post by railtechnician on Jan 7, 2013 18:16:51 GMT
Can anyone explain why on various V frames there are more than one shaft for release? I was under the impression that it was to do with the number of contacts? (I know that some had actual one for each direction) example being Barking station. The following have more than one; Acton Town East 36 shaft Turnham Green 24 shaft West Ken West 24 shaft Tower Hill 12 shaft Bromley 12 shaft These have one Putney Bridge 12 shaft East Ham 12 shaft High St Ken 24 shaft Gloucester Road 24 shaft has three (EB 2 shafts, WB 1 shaft) South Ken 24 shaft has four (two for each direction) Hope this makes sense. Yep two shafts mechanically coupled together with a single lever is the same as a single release shaft but having more contacts. RT Right so if it is to do with the contacts comparing Bromley with Putney both 12 shaft (DWS please note) Putney only has one release with one spare shaft and Bromley has two release shafts with 3 spare shafts, any idea why this would occur? Every site is unique! It is simply not possible to directly compare two sites with the same number of levers or for that matter the same basic layout, the generation of signalling also matters as things were done to different standards. Manual or auto release circuitry will also have a bearing upon the contact requirements as will the number of controlled signals in the layout. As we used to say if there is one of something then it is a standard. As MRFS says, the only way to know is to look at the bookwiring.
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Post by programmes1 on Jan 8, 2013 9:14:33 GMT
Tom can you expand a bit more I know tappings are taken from busbars on other things.
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Post by programmes1 on Jan 8, 2013 9:17:54 GMT
I wonder if the only sure-fire way to answer this question would be to look at the bookwiring? Yes that would be good but is there not a basic standard that is followed (I know LU has lots of standards ACE)
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Post by programmes1 on Jan 8, 2013 9:21:49 GMT
Yep two shafts mechanically coupled together with a single lever is the same as a single release shaft but having more contacts. RT Right so if it is to do with the contacts comparing Bromley with Putney both 12 shaft (DWS please note) Putney only has one release with one spare shaft and Bromley has two release shafts with 3 spare shafts, any idea why this would occur? Every site is unique! It is simply not possible to directly compare two sites with the same number of levers or for that matter the same basic layout, the generation of signalling also matters as things were done to different standards. Manual or auto release circuitry will also have a bearing upon the contact requirements as will the number of controlled signals in the layout. As we used to say if there is one of something then it is a standard. As MRFS says, the only way to know is to look at the bookwiring. There are signalling standards but are they not altered to LUs wants I know they used to do this with a lot of items they bought they would then amend for there use, perhaps others do the same. I knew someone who worked on NR signals he could not believe how different things were when he did some work.
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Post by railtechnician on Jan 8, 2013 11:09:10 GMT
Every site is unique! It is simply not possible to directly compare two sites with the same number of levers or for that matter the same basic layout, the generation of signalling also matters as things were done to different standards. Manual or auto release circuitry will also have a bearing upon the contact requirements as will the number of controlled signals in the layout. As we used to say if there is one of something then it is a standard. As MRFS says, the only way to know is to look at the bookwiring. There are signalling standards but are they not altered to LUs wants I know they used to do this with a lot of items they bought they would then amend for there use, perhaps others do the same. I knew someone who worked on NR signals he could not believe how different things were when he did some work. LU had its own signalling standards known as "LT Signalling". AFAIK it still does even though conventional "LT Signalling" is being superseded.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2013 15:01:07 GMT
The JNBX busbar is cut into the release shaft / shafts so if the lever is not in the Normal position then none of the signals will clear but this was only done at the older sites. Not all sites have JNBX busbars for the signal selections.
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Post by railtechnician on Jan 9, 2013 17:47:20 GMT
The JNBX busbar is cut into the release shaft / shafts so if the lever is not in the Normal position then none of the signals will clear but this was only done at the older sites. Not all sites have JNBX busbars for the signal selections. My recollection is that originally manual sites with a JNBX busbar had a single busbar. Subsequently with the introduction of protection keyswitches the busbar was sectioned so that only those signals needing to remain at danger had the feed removed when such a keyswitch was operated. King's Cross Picc was one such site with IIRC three or four JNBX busbar sections and two or three protection keyswitches but a single release lever with two shafts. It was also a site that could be manned by a signalman with the frame technically outside the IMR. The JNBX busbar was of course one way of doing things until it was superseded for new installations. It would make sense that a complex site might have more than one release lever in order to maintain a service in one part while having to take a release in another such as for an incident affecting one road only.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 9, 2013 18:49:03 GMT
Would I be right in thinking that JNBX is used there because there is a time delay on releasing the BX side of the circuitry?
I ought to know for sure, but I'm doubting what I understand JN to mean in this circumstance.
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Post by railtechnician on Jan 10, 2013 3:41:34 GMT
Would I be right in thinking that JNBX is used there because there is a time delay on releasing the BX side of the circuitry? I ought to know for sure, but I'm doubting what I understand JN to mean in this circumstance. The JNBX100 was the feed disconnected when the signalman had to manually take a release by winding in and back out the release screw in the cabin. Your understanding is correct, Timed Hand Release BX100. I recall the old Wood Green Picc signal cabin had multiple release relays which were JNNRs, Timed Hand Release Normal Relays (controlled by the screw or remotely from Arnos Grove cabin when 'G' was in king lever) which seemed to differ from what was taught for that standard of signalling, simply JNRs. Of course the east end of the Picc was electrically fed by the North Met Electricity company originally (offices still visible in Station Road Wood Green but changed use long ago), the only area where I ever saw blue frame 50v DEV, SEV etc relays and where there were GMRs instead of GVCRs. I presume that standard was the same on the whole extension north of Finsbury Park but at that time (1978/9) I only worked on the section from Wood Green to Cockfosters and in cabins 'G', 'K' and 'M'.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 10, 2013 15:55:10 GMT
Would I be right in thinking that JNBX is used there because there is a time delay on releasing the BX side of the circuitry? I ought to know for sure, but I'm doubting what I understand JN to mean in this circumstance. The JNBX100 was the feed disconnected when the signalman had to manually take a release by winding in and back out the release screw in the cabin. Your understanding is correct, Timed Hand Release BX100. I recall the old Wood Green Picc signal cabin had multiple release relays which were JNNRs, Timed Hand Release Normal Relays (controlled by the screw or remotely from Arnos Grove cabin when 'G' was in king lever) which seemed to differ from what was taught for that standard of signalling, simply JNRs. I've seen many references to Wood Green over the years, including the opening Yellow Peril and it's re-issue in 1969 (or thereabouts) with a bit more information. Lest it be forgotten that Wood Green was the first ever (I'll probably get this wrong in the exact terminology) TD-based automatic reversing siding in the world; so I suspect that terminology dates from when Wood Green opened. There is a slim possibility that the original TD linens still exist somewhere, and I suspect that the JNNR terminology dates from then. I know that you didn't get such exotic things in RSTD installations. Of course the east end of the Picc was electrically fed by the North Met Electricity company originally (offices still visible in Station Road Wood Green but changed use long ago), the only area where I ever saw blue frame 50v DEV, SEV etc relays and where there were GMRs instead of GVCRs. I presume that standard was the same on the whole extension north of Finsbury Park but at that time (1978/9) I only worked on the section from Wood Green to Cockfosters and in cabins 'G', 'K' and 'M'. Presumably because the GMRs drove the trainstops down? I know the purpose of a GVCR, and wonder if in earlier installations the 'C' part of things was achieved by the 'M' part of the GMR?
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Post by railtechnician on Jan 10, 2013 19:12:36 GMT
The JNBX100 was the feed disconnected when the signalman had to manually take a release by winding in and back out the release screw in the cabin. Your understanding is correct, Timed Hand Release BX100. I recall the old Wood Green Picc signal cabin had multiple release relays which were JNNRs, Timed Hand Release Normal Relays (controlled by the screw or remotely from Arnos Grove cabin when 'G' was in king lever) which seemed to differ from what was taught for that standard of signalling, simply JNRs. I've seen many references to Wood Green over the years, including the opening Yellow Peril and it's re-issue in 1969 (or thereabouts) with a bit more information. Lest it be forgotten that Wood Green was the first ever (I'll probably get this wrong in the exact terminology) TD-based automatic reversing siding in the world; so I suspect that terminology dates from when Wood Green opened. There is a slim possibility that the original TD linens still exist somewhere, and I suspect that the JNNR terminology dates from then. I know that you didn't get such exotic things in RSTD installations. Of course the east end of the Picc was electrically fed by the North Met Electricity company originally (offices still visible in Station Road Wood Green but changed use long ago), the only area where I ever saw blue frame 50v DEV, SEV etc relays and where there were GMRs instead of GVCRs. I presume that standard was the same on the whole extension north of Finsbury Park but at that time (1978/9) I only worked on the section from Wood Green to Cockfosters and in cabins 'G', 'K' and 'M'. Presumably because the GMRs drove the trainstops down? I know the purpose of a GVCR, and wonder if in earlier installations the 'C' part of things was achieved by the 'M' part of the GMR? Wood Green was an RSTD site when I first worked there, a stage 1 resignalling temporary relay room built of aluminium sheet was located on the platform just outside the running SM office and connected to the cabin / relay room via 6x6 Guilflex trunking at a height of about 8' for the short distance along the platform. I was safety man watching that length of trunking from 1900 to end of traffic and from start of traffic to 0700, during engineering hours I was running, testing and terminating cables in termination boxes located in the siding and on fuse bays in the temporary relay room along with my Whitechapel new works colleagues. My recollection is that electronic TD was installed on the stage 1 changeover shift in which we also dismantled the frame and loaded it onto a ballast train. The electronic TD had been on trial at Earls Court prior to the changeover and there were a few problems on the Sunday morning which kept some of us on site while the majority of staff had returned to depot to book off. Thus we were still present when the first reverser came in, took the route to the siding and 'disappeared' leaving the points tracklocked............... I was just a wireman back then and in those days signal circuitry was a bit of a mystery, some chargehands would say nothing and wouldn't let anyone in the gang near the bookwiring. The way to learn was to attend evening classes at Earl's Court which I did for the last few weeks of a course but that threw little light upon the signalling at the east end of the Picc. In 1979 I left signals for telephones (my original trade) and did not return to a signal section until 1996. I was told that a GMR was much the same as a GVCR but I don't know it for fact and of course that signalling was all replaced in the stage 2 resignalling in the early 1980s. I'd love to see the bookwirings for the original signalling. I have wondered if Cockfosters to Finsbury Park originally had electric trainstops and if that was the reason for GMRs but I don't know. Somewhere I have the details for two types of electric trainstop once used on the Underground but I have no idea how widely they were used. AFAIK they were all removed in the 1950s.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 10, 2013 19:24:37 GMT
I was told that a GMR was much the same as a GVCR but I don't know it for fact and of course that signalling was all replaced in the stage 2 resignalling in the early 1980s. I'd love to see the bookwirings for the original signalling. I have wondered if Cockfosters to Finsbury Park originally had electric trainstops and if that was the reason for GMRs but I don't know. Somewhere I have the details for two types of electric trainstop once used on the Underground but I have no idea how widely they were used. AFAIK they were all removed in the 1950s. ISTR that the electric trainstops were used north of Queens Park and with the opening to Edgware in the 20s - there were some all-electric installations (Hendon, Brent spring to mind, but I'd need to check a bit further). Looking at District Railway and Piccadilly Line Supplement to Traffic Notice 36/32 which covers the extension to Arnos Grove and bits and bobs west of Earls Court, paragraph 4 reads: Unfortunately the penultimate sentence gives EP trainstops
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Post by railtechnician on Jan 11, 2013 8:20:35 GMT
I was told that a GMR was much the same as a GVCR but I don't know it for fact and of course that signalling was all replaced in the stage 2 resignalling in the early 1980s. I'd love to see the bookwirings for the original signalling. I have wondered if Cockfosters to Finsbury Park originally had electric trainstops and if that was the reason for GMRs but I don't know. Somewhere I have the details for two types of electric trainstop once used on the Underground but I have no idea how widely they were used. AFAIK they were all removed in the 1950s. ISTR that the electric trainstops were used north of Queens Park and with the opening to Edgware in the 20s - there were some all-electric installations (Hendon, Brent spring to mind, but I'd need to check a bit further). Looking at District Railway and Piccadilly Line Supplement to Traffic Notice 36/32 which covers the extension to Arnos Grove and bits and bobs west of Earls Court, paragraph 4 reads: Unfortunately the penultimate sentence gives EP trainstops Yep, I dug out some 1950s standard signalling circuits and came to the conclusion that electric trainstops were relatively 'old hat' then as only EP trainstops were shown. At that time a GVCR was known as a GCR, that is the circuitry was identical with both GR and V proved, only the relay designation was different. I worked at many sites with GCRs over the years and expect there are still some around now e.g. Ealing Broadway and South Harrow. The electric trainstops I have as Westinghouse F2 and F3 types being AC and DC respectively IIRC, until now I never had any idea where they were used!
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jan 11, 2013 13:10:41 GMT
Forgive an idiot question; what do GR and V stand for in this context?
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 11, 2013 13:55:05 GMT
Forgive an idiot question; what do GR and V stand for in this context? si Gnal, Relay and trainstop - no, I don't know either.
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Post by railtechnician on Jan 11, 2013 22:36:02 GMT
Forgive an idiot question; what do GR and V stand for in this context? si Gnal, Relay and trainstop - no, I don't know either. V= trainstop and also (trainstop)Valve
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Jan 12, 2013 1:08:29 GMT
V= trainstop and also (trainstop)Valve Y-e-e-e-s. I think the first trainstops were all electric and ISTR that the V was in use in the States with their all electric interlocking, as the alphabet came from the US. Yes - the V was the valve in the table interlockers, with the M as the motor of the trainstop, so it became V with external air or hydraulic drive.
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Post by railtechnician on Jan 12, 2013 7:43:28 GMT
V= trainstop and also (trainstop)Valve Y-e-e-e-s. I think the first trainstops were all electric and ISTR that the V was in use in the States with their all electric interlocking, as the alphabet came from the US. Yes - the V was the valve in the table interlockers, with the M as the motor of the trainstop, so it became V with external air or hydraulic drive. Well of course at LU the trainstop Valve will be the separate operating GE valve or SA valve (there certainly were still a few of those around when I retired). AFAIK the air motor in a trainstop or for that matter in a turnout has never had a letter designation, motors not being shown in LU signalling prints (although I guess they might've been for electric trainstops). Of course a dual GE valve (commonly called a D valve) used to operate turnout motors has the NW / RW designation which lends weight to the idea that the Valve takes its designation from what it operates.
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