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Post by charleyfarley on Oct 5, 2012 9:51:06 GMT
I was thinking there must be a number of staff present additional to the train operator. Walking a train load of passengers back to the previous station is surely a stressful task. Tunnels are places where mice scamper around, and if an average female passenger were to feel a mouse scamper over her foot, her reaction might be rather extreme, possibly affecting her fellow passengers making the group very difficult to calm down in the sense of regaining control of the situation in hand.
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North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
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Post by North End on Oct 5, 2012 10:15:16 GMT
I was thinking there must be a number of staff present additional to the train operator. Walking a train load of passengers back to the previous station is surely a stressful task. Tunnels are places where mice scamper around, and if an average female passenger were to feel a mouse scamper over her foot, her reaction might be rather extreme, possibly affecting her fellow passengers making the group very difficult to calm down in the sense of regaining control of the situation in hand. Normally for a detrainment, as many staff as possible would be used to assist. This would involve staff from the adjacent stations, and as many on-call managers as can be found, including from other lines if possible. Where things can become difficult is when there are multiple detrainments taking place at the same time, or if the incident is close to the close of traffic in which case there might not be so many staff available. Depending on the circumstances, you don't necessarily need that many staff to do a detrainment, but the fewer staff you have means the time taken will potentially increase. Ok if conditions in the tunnel are not hot, but not if the reverse is true. Mice aren't really an issue as they tend to run away from people. The thing to beware of is if you are carrying a bag which is partially open, especially if there's food in there! Get home and find you've been carrying a mouse around all day, or worse find it at home a few days later... (not a mistake you make twice!!) |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2012 11:09:02 GMT
Depends on the circumstances and the distance walked. You need a minimum of 2 and a maximum of as many as may be needed.
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Post by trt on Oct 5, 2012 11:13:30 GMT
And of course if a member of station staff leaves the station area, that station might have to close due to being below minimum staffing. But of course, if a detrainment is needed, the station might well be closed anyway! Although I'm thinking of stations served by more than one line here.
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pitdiver
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Post by pitdiver on Oct 5, 2012 12:24:03 GMT
Many years ago I was seconded to the staff development dept of the Northern Line. This was to develop a Table Top exercise where a number of trains needed to be detrained in Tunnels. The brief was based at Camden Town Stn on a HOT summer's Friday evening around about 1800hrs. Additional information that was given to the candidates included the fact there were two women going into labour on two of the trains, and due to a major incident on the Euston Rd traffic was gridlocked. Each train was loaded to capacity. As you can imagine this certainly gave the participants in the exercise something to think about. I think one of the results was that most stns in Central London were closed so staff could be utilised for the detraining. Let's hope this situation never arises as I would hate to be involved in such an incident. This doesn't diminish the efforts of staff of 7/7 who as far I am concerned did a magnificent job.
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Post by trt on Oct 5, 2012 12:26:48 GMT
Bloomin' flip. That's getting close to worst case scenario alright! Multiple detrains at peak on idiot Friday in the Euston area with medical alerts and gridlock thrown in?
Was there an "official" best solution?
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pitdiver
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Post by pitdiver on Oct 18, 2012 5:37:52 GMT
Bloomin' flip. That's getting close to worst case scenario alright! Multiple detrains at peak on idiot Friday in the Euston area with medical alerts and gridlock thrown in? Was there an "official" best solution? IIRC there was not any best option put forward. The idea of the exercise was give staff an insight to what could happen and how how incidents can escalate to engulf a considerable part of the Network. I on the other hand was involved in detraining a a Met train one night due to a heavy snowfall in the Croxley area. It was pitch black with about 6 inches of snow on the ground. There were only two of us taking part in the detrainment. Myself and the T/Op. Fortunately the train was lightly loaded but it was still a difficult operation in testing circumstances. In those days stations on the north end of The Met were single manned and there was no chance of getting help from adjacent stations due to the weather |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2012 8:25:29 GMT
Obvious question; was only one branch of the Northern shutdown or both? If both then with the Euston Road gridlocked how did you get those staff from other stations up to Camden Town to assist with the detrainment? Beam me up, Scotty?
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Post by trt on Oct 18, 2012 10:31:08 GMT
Obvious question; was only one branch of the Northern shutdown or both? If both then with the Euston Road gridlocked how did you get those staff from other stations up to Camden Town to assist with the detrainment? Beam me up, Scotty? Police cars? Push bikes? Ah! Police motor bikes. Does the ERU have motor bikes? |
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pitdiver
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Post by pitdiver on Oct 18, 2012 11:44:49 GMT
Guys, the idea of the exercise was to show how difficult things could get. All these thing were talked about. We just wanted staff to think about what can happen in difficult situations. This exercise was designed in about 98/99 so things will have changed by now. Natural evolution and as a result of 7/7. I left he Northern line in 99 so I don't know what happened but I expect a lot of talking took place, This was the whole idea to get people to think. This was on top of the blank Tube Map quiz which I designed, That caused a few scratched heads I can tell you together with the other quiz I devised.
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Post by railtechnician on Oct 18, 2012 14:51:50 GMT
Obvious question; was only one branch of the Northern shutdown or both? If both then with the Euston Road gridlocked how did you get those staff from other stations up to Camden Town to assist with the detrainment? Beam me up, Scotty? The obvious method is via the tunnels, the trouble is that unless things have changed since 7/7 the vast majority of station staff have very limited training in tunnel access. In my opinion all station staff should be required to walk tunnel sections on a monthly basis during engineering hours to know, practise and understand the procedures and the hazards and the correct methods of communication by using them. LUL has gone overboard on H&S in most areas but this is one area in which training has long been deficient. Sitting in a classroom once a year and spending one shift in a tunnel is simply not enough to instill knowledge and confidence in the average station staff and that includes all station staff from SA to DSM. |
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pitdiver
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Post by pitdiver on Oct 18, 2012 16:36:06 GMT
In response to railtechnician I don't think I ever walked a tunnel during training, wasn't really needed on the north end of the Met. However I did get the chance when I took part in a training exercise on the W&C one sunday morning. It wasn't until I went to Goodge St did I actually get the chance to go in a tunnel. Then that was because I asked some P/Way guys if I could come with them
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2012 5:37:41 GMT
The obvious method is via the tunnels, the trouble is that unless things have changed since 7/7 the vast majority of station staff have very limited training in tunnel access. In my opinion all station staff should be required to walk tunnel sections on a monthly basis during engineering hours to know, practise and understand the procedures and the hazards and the correct methods of communication by using them. LUL has gone overboard on H&S in most areas but this is one area in which training has long been deficient. Sitting in a classroom once a year and spending one shift in a tunnel is simply not enough to instill knowledge and confidence in the average station staff and that includes all station staff from SA to DSM. If they’re sending staff from multiple stations in Zone 1 how long would it take them to walk through tunnels especially when there are trains in there, some of which will still be on juice? With regards training for tunnels with a few exceptions the only station staff on duty during engineering hours are station supervisors, they have barely enough CSAs and MFs to cover duties during traffic hours without stretching them over nights when there’s no punters to deal with. A single night shift means losing a member of staff for two days as they can't book on for 12 hours before and after they've finished. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2012 10:20:24 GMT
Staff haven't had specific tunnel training in the 10 yrs I've been working - but you do a track walk as a part of your SS training which is often between Liverpool St & Moorgate.
However SS are supposed to be trained in their area of responsibility which includes track familiarisation if you are working in a complex area. However it is highly unlikely if you work in a simple area such as Balham you will ever be taken on the track.
One of the other things to remember that there are simply not enough staff available to undertake a large scale tunnel detainment within a relatively short time frame.
LU stations are staffed based upon the legally required minimum numbers. And while many stations will have additional staff over these minimum levels in the peaks, these staff are needed to deal with the additional pressures the peak hours bring. Minimum numbers are only based upon the evacuation of a station and do not include any operational procedures that they may be asked to undertake.
Additionally, training now places greater emphasis on keeping interchanges open rather than closing a main interchange to manage the incident and these pressures are fed into the command chain.
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pitdiver
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Post by pitdiver on Oct 19, 2012 10:58:40 GMT
As I have stated I have not worked on LUL for a number of years but I fully endorse what aslefshrugged and Stig have said. I doesn't appear to have changed much re staffing levels and numbers available it seems to have got worse. Perhaps my tabletop exercise was a nearer reality than what I thought all those years ago.
Best of luck to all LUL current staff let's hope that things that have been discussed on this thread never occur.
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Post by melikepie on Oct 20, 2012 22:01:40 GMT
Mice aren't really an issue as they tend to run away from people. The thing to beware of is if you are carrying a bag which is partially open, especially if there's food in there! Get home and find you've been carrying a mouse around all day, or worse find it at home a few days later... (not a mistake you make twice!!) So when did you find a mouse in your bag? |
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