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Post by causton on Feb 26, 2012 2:02:54 GMT
The Circle Line can then exclusively serve the line to Hammermith. I believe one of the major points of making the Circle Line not a circle was that more trains were needed on the Hammersmith branch. Also, the depot for many trains is at Hammersmith, so you would have a lot of Circle line trains going to Edgware Road/Liverpool Street and then magically not being anything like a circular shaped route and going to Barking at the start/end/unit change/whatever else requires going to the depot time! |
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Feb 26, 2012 9:54:40 GMT
Perhaps it might be useful to look at it from a different perspective? In NY, FWICG a service runs over a series of lines, the main trunk line involved giving the service its bullet colour. This corresponds well to the deep level lines in London, and seems the principal for the previous LUL/NR map's NR colouring, where colours were designated on NR lines by which terminal they served, not the TOC which ran them. (Course this has now changed...) Anyway when this is applied to LUL lines, some interesting issues occur. - The Bakerloo, Central, Jubilee, Piccadilly, Victoria, and W&C remain unchanged. Though different services run on each line, they all share their own respective core through central London
- The Northern undergoes an effective public split, where trains that run via Charing Cross are assigned a different identity to those via Bank.
- The SSR has quite a few changes, many perhaps will not be welcomed by District people...
- The Circle line is a bit of an anomaly. Like the Northern it runs through two 'trunk' routes, however unline the Northen a train from one end to the other must run through both, instead of exclusively either. As such it seems to make some sense in representing it as a special line with its own colour. Slightly similar to the reasoning made in 1949, perhaps?
- The H&C and Met share the same trunk route along the northern Circle. Make of that what you will
  ;D
- The District's trunk route is clearly the southern Circle, however the Wimbleware doesn't use this section atall. Rather like the Crosstown line in NY, it steers clear of the trunk routes in the centre. It follows there would be some logic in differentiating it to the passenger.
- I suppose the application could be taken one step further, and have shuttles that don't use trunk routes all coloured grey. MHE, Ongar, Chesham, Oly-HSK, Aldwych, South Acton, and contentiously the W&C could all be treated so.
I guess the point is that line designation should, ideally, be mainly for a passengers benefit to aid in plannning ones journey and traveling along the way. In some ways LUL seems to have increased seperation mostly for business purposes, with any help in passenger identification being almost a side effect. On a tangent, one wonders if the New Works Programme had been completed in full, whether the tube map of now would necessitate a form more like that of NY's map. |
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Post by v52gc on Feb 26, 2012 10:33:23 GMT
I guess the point is that line designation should, ideally, be mainly for a passengers benefit to aid in plannning ones journey and traveling along the way. In some ways LUL seems to have increased seperation mostly for business purposes, with any help in passenger identification being almost a side effect. That is very true. One could argue though that familiarity with the current system is the passenger benefit. As more and more lines get added and services changed the system gets more and more complicated for the passenger. I'd like to try to imagine the map if all the New Works had been completed and a new line a decade after that... |
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metman
Global Moderator
5056 05/12/1961-23/04/2012 RIP
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Post by metman on Feb 26, 2012 16:02:51 GMT
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Post by ruislip on Feb 26, 2012 19:51:57 GMT
Did that show the ELL because that type of stock was operated on it back in the day? |
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Post by mikebuzz on Feb 26, 2012 23:28:49 GMT
"Wimbleware" is purely a nickname, much like "Goblin" is used for the Gospel Oak to Barking line. But that's like "Bakerloo" for the Baker Street & Waterloo line, which the tube maps list as "Bakerloo". Bakerloo became widely popular with the public even before the line opened. The public also determined Piccadilly, Metropolitan, District and Hampstead (I also believe they called the C&SLR the City line). Wimbleware is a made up name used by a few enthusiasts (as evidenced by your google search!). Personally I'm not keen on contrived portmanteau names like this (reminds me of the suggested name for London Borough of Barnet in 1965: Finbarden), they almost always sound bad (step forward Chelney). I suspect Bakerloo became popular with the public because it didn't sound bad. There might be a case for Goblin though. AFAIK none of these names has developed naturally with the public. Although going back to the stretch from EC to Edgware Road, I think it makes sense remaining a part of the District line. Whilst (as far as I know) nothing has been said about it, when the S7 Stock replaces all current stock, what's to say there couldn't occasionally be a Ealing Broadway/Richmond to Edgware Road service? And what's to say there couldn't occasionally be a service from Hammersmith to Richmond, via Wood Lane and Liverpool Street? Because the H&C at Hammersmith is a terminus with no physical connection to the District to Richmond? |
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metman
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Post by metman on Feb 26, 2012 23:54:58 GMT
I think he means from Hamersmith Met (yes I still call it that!) to Richmond via Kings Cross and Victoria!
The ELL maps were on several stocks. The ELL always had the left over or spare trains in a fleet. From about 1953, F stock from the Met ran the service, followed by Q stock (and occasionally CP stock) until 1971. The Q38 stock which the map is described would have been used on the service up to Sept 1971. They were only 4 car trains but I expect were surplus to requirements after the CP stock started to move from the Met to the District in 1963.
The CO/CP stock took over from the Q stock in 1971 and gave way to 1938 tube stock in 1974 which were also being withdrawn after deliveries of 1972/73 stocks. The CO/CP stock was struggling with a lack of wheels so the ELL units were drafted back into the general pool of cars for the District.
The 1938 stock gave way to A60/62 stock in 1977 which were especially suitable for the ELL and lasted till closure (except for a year or two when 3 car D stock was used to cover OPO conversion of the A stock).
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Post by wdfan on Feb 29, 2012 12:48:32 GMT
I think the "Wimbleware" should definitely be it's own line for this reason: Trains from Bayswater are NEVER timetabled to go to Ravenscourt Park (for example) and yet on the current Tube map, there is one green line that joins these two stations with no note saying to change at Earls Court to do this journey. TfL created the H&C from the Met and I think they should do it with this branch too.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2012 17:20:17 GMT
Speaking as LUL staff, I again confirm my colleagues comments there is no such thing as the "Wimbleware" service. This somewhat annoying term was made up here and is only used here or by people who have picked it up here. We (some of you) use it as a slang term here for convenience as we understand what it means, but it is not a real title. I have never heard it used either officially within LU by staff, management, planners or any one else.
The Wimbledon branch is an integral part of the District Line. The Edgware Road branch is seen differently purely because of historical anomalies resulting it it being confined to C Stock and previously short formations of CO and CP stock (when it was only Putney Bridge to Edgware Road anyway - the Wimbledon trains were generally city trains).
Talk of re-branding it at substantial expense is just nonsense, the C stock and D stock are imminently to be replaced by S7 stock which will not be subject to the limitations of D stock. Trains will be subject to more efficient crewing and pathing options. From that point trains need no longer be scheduled to always run between Edgware Road and Wimbledon and I gather they will no longer do so with the currently applied rigidity.
The map which gave the impression trains from Richmond / Ealing couldn't be pathed to High Street Kensington was another misconception as a large number of trains do exactly that early and late and on the peak shoulders. The map was changed after I raised the matter internally and the revisions made by the relevant persons have produced a much more accurate result.
I guess as the SSR becomes more and more integrated and trains may have more and more routing options and stopping patterns, consideration may have to be given to allocation route numbers "D1", "D5" "M3" "H2" "C0" and so on. (ie. District1, District 5, Metropolitan 3, Hammersmith & City 2, Circle clockwise....etc). However the DLR is likely to be in need of such a system first!
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Feb 29, 2012 17:22:18 GMT
Well said, 'aspect'. +1 from me.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Feb 29, 2012 18:03:18 GMT
Trains from Bayswater are NEVER timetabled to go to Ravenscourt Park (for example) and yet on the current Tube map, there is one green line that joins these two stations with no note saying to change at Earls Court to do this journey. They are however timetabled to go to Olympia from Bayswater. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 29, 2012 21:13:47 GMT
Speaking as LUL staff, I again confirm my colleagues comments there is no such thing as the "Wimbleware" service. There is a difference between the way the staff view things and how it is best presented to the public - the Tube Map is very much part of the latter. The Wimbledon branch is an integral part of the District Line. Undoubtedly, but historically so are the Hounslow and South Harrow branches The Edgware Road branch is seen differently purely because of historical anomalies resulting it it being confined to C Stock and previously short formations of CO and CP stock Quite - it has to be operated separately The C stock and D stock are imminently to be replaced by S7 stock which will not be subject to the limitations of D stock. Trains will be subject to more efficient crewing and pathing options. From that point trains need no longer be scheduled to always run between Edgware Road and Wimbledon and I gather they will no longer do so with the currently applied rigidity. Taking that to its logical conclusion suggests all SSL services (at least all those to be served by S7 stock) should be shown in one colour, as was the case with some early Beck diagrams. There is a balance to be struck between showing every single service in a different colour (like the Met/Circle/H&C), and showing everything in the same colour (like the DLR). Where Wimbledon-Edgware Road falls on that spectrum is a matter of opinion - I think at present it merits a separate colour, but it didn't when weekend services ran through from Putney Bridge round the north side of the Circle, and may not again if SSL services become less rigidly separated. |
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Post by wdfan on Mar 1, 2012 9:34:10 GMT
They are however timetabled to go to Olympia from Bayswater. That's true - about 2 or 3 trains early in the morning, but NO trains run from Ravenscourt Park to Bayswater. Why not make the Olympia branch part of the "Wimbleware" service in that case? |
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Post by 21146 on Mar 1, 2012 11:36:45 GMT
Aspect is right. "Wimbleware" is a made-up gricers' term which has no regular use within LU. If you're lucky the service might be referred to as the "Edgware Roads".
There are, or were, colloquial names used on LT/LU for lines but in the main, these stemmed from earlier titles. The Metropolitan No1 Section was still known as the H&C, the No2 Section the Wood Line, the Highbury Branch was the Northern City Line, and the District was the DR - in fact still is at times!
Even today on TFL, the NLL, ELL, WLL and Watford DC Lines all live on in internal usage, despite the organsiation's wish to subsume all under the LO banner.
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Post by JR 15secs on Mar 1, 2012 13:44:12 GMT
My Bardic lamp has Acton Town (DR) on each side and bardic lamps were issued 1967.
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Post by 21146 on Mar 1, 2012 14:43:39 GMT
On reflection I suppose "gricer" is another made-up term. Later on someone decided it stood for "gaberdine-raincoated ice cream-eating rail enthusiast", which is of course a nonsense -otherwise it would have been "gricere". A bit like Terry Nation saying Dalek came from the spine of an encyclopedia when in reality he just got sick of being asked the question.
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slugabed
Zu lang am schnuller.
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Post by slugabed on Mar 1, 2012 20:59:42 GMT
On reflection I suppose "gricer" is another made-up term. Later on someone decided it stood for "gaberdine-raincoated ice cream-eating rail enthusiast", which is of course a nonsense -otherwise it would have been "gricere". A bit like Terry Nation saying Dalek came from the spine of an encyclopedia when in reality he just got sick of being asked the question. Perhaps I'm missing the point of the last sentence,but "Dalek" is a real word...an adjective,in Serbian (presumably Croatian as well) translate.google.com/?tl=sr&q=#sr|en|dalekwhose seconadary meanings are entirely appropriate. I always understood there was a Mr.Grice who gave his name to Gricer,meaning trainspotter,a word in use since at least the '70s... |
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Post by wdfan on Mar 2, 2012 9:26:19 GMT
It doesn't matter if "Wimbleware" is a enthusiast's term or not - surely the discussion here is whether the section from Edgware Road to Wimbledon should be its own line separate from the District or not? Its name can be decided later......
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Post by mikebuzz on Mar 2, 2012 13:23:45 GMT
I'd rather its name was sorted out first. On reflection I suppose "gricer" is another made-up term. Later on someone decided it stood for "gaberdine-raincoated ice cream-eating rail enthusiast", which is of course a nonsense -otherwise it would have been "gricere". A bit like Terry Nation saying Dalek came from the spine of an encyclopedia when in reality he just got sick of being asked the question. Never heard of gricer before - even on this site! Everyone knows Dalek is Kaled backwards. ;D |
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Post by trt on Mar 2, 2012 13:26:04 GMT
*cough* that would be a Delak.
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castlebar
Planners use hindsight, not foresight
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Post by castlebar on Mar 2, 2012 14:50:07 GMT
Can we ban the stupid term "Wimbleware" from the boards?? Please??
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Post by trt on Mar 2, 2012 14:58:21 GMT
Can we ban the stupid term "Wimbleware" from the boards?? Please?? For what it's worth, I initially thought it referred to knowledge of a certain tennis event that happens in June. |
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Post by mikebuzz on Mar 2, 2012 15:31:44 GMT
*cough* that would be a Delak. Never noticed it would be Kelad. Nonetheless it's named after the Kaled race. Always thought it was the Edgware Road-Wimbledon service, except where it isn't. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2012 15:56:58 GMT
They should have Daleks on the underground to catch fare dodgers. Now it's commonly known they can float up and down stairs there can be no further possible reason for LUL not to employ them.
A few exterminations would send a positive message.
While they're at it, Davros should do the passenger announcements. "So, we meet again Doctor but this time will be the last time..............DETONATE THE REALITY BOMB!!!!!.......oh and mind the gap."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2012 13:34:15 GMT
Can we ban the stupid term "Wimbleware" from the boards?? Please?? +1 ! Daft, sounds like some sort of naff undergarment! ;D Kaleds were the race whose mutated remains inhabit the interior of the Dalek machines and thus became Daleks. Davros is, of course, a Kaled. The Daleks appearing from the 1963 group of episodes starting with The Dead Planet, the following episode being titled The Daleks. I think the term Kaled was first used in the 1976 story Genesis of the Daleks where much of their history was then explained and Davros first appeared.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2012 14:37:45 GMT
And what's to say there couldn't occasionally be a service from Hammersmith to Richmond, via Wood Lane and Liverpool Street? Because the H&C at Hammersmith is a terminus with no physical connection to the District to Richmond? But it does have a physical connection - via Wood Lane, and Liverpool Street; go round 3 sides of the circle. Just like it has a physical connection to High Street Kensington - via those same 3 sides of the circle. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2012 14:43:01 GMT
But why not do that with the circle line? Why not have it as just the H&C line, with a split at liverpool street? Why is it distinct? And whatever the reason is, why can't that be applied to the Wimbleware route? Why is H&C / Circle taking different routes at Liverpool Street, with one going to Barking, and the other to Edware Road (via Victoria), any different from the Wimbledon branch taking different routes at Earls court, with one going to Barking, and the other to Edware Road? Why is the H&C treated as different from the Circle, on the maps, on the plans, in publicity, but the Wimbleware not distinct from the district line to wimbledon? On that old map, with the Earls Court split, why can't the edware road branch be in a different colour, with a parallel line down to Wimbledon - in the style of the circle vs H&C going to Hammersmith. |
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Post by alfie on Mar 3, 2012 22:15:29 GMT
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Post by alfie on Mar 3, 2012 22:31:42 GMT
But why not do that with the circle line? Why not have it as just the H&C line, with a split at liverpool street? Why is the H&C treated as different from the Circle, on the maps, on the plans, in publicity, but the Wimbleware not distinct from the district line to wimbledon? On that old map, with the Earls Court split, why can't the edware road branch be in a different colour, with a parallel line down to Wimbledon - in the style of the circle vs H&C going to Hammersmith. 1) Because the circle line as a service is a lot easier than having trains at Hammersmith going to Edgware Road via King's Cross.. Yes, I know yer gonna say 'why not with the wimbleware' hang on.. 2) 'bout to make a largely irrelevant point but they have a timetable lumped together. 3) I see nothing wrong with it. But pax don't like their trains going to somewhere the map says it won't, i.e. Districts during engineering works going up to Edgware Road. Assuming the Wimbleware line replaces the District Earl's Court - Edgware Road, that is. Would certainly have made Monday's episode of The Tube a tad more interesting.. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2012 10:35:34 GMT
+1 ! Daft, sounds like some sort of naff undergarment! ;D I found it in a nuns clothing catalogue. Sorry..............my bad, it actually says Wimple Wear. |
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;D
