Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2012 1:25:27 GMT
Hey all, One of my friends posted the following image on Facebook, with the caption "Train spilt in two"  Now I'm assuming this isn't what happened, by the fact that the visible end has its tail lights on and the DMI showing the destination. That's just a guess... but also the fact I've never seen a Central Line train with two end cars face to face in the middle like that. So what happened here? I didn't think trains could become that close? |
|
mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Feb 12, 2012 2:37:25 GMT
So what happened here? I didn't think trains could become that close? Unusual. I'm sure there'll be an explanation somewhere. I have seen trains with a lot (an *awful* lot, TBH) more momentum slightly closer together, but not by much. All done perfectly safely and in accordance with the Rules. FWIW, I don't think either train is stationary; nor has safety been compromised. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2012 6:52:29 GMT
Assuming the photo was taken on 10 February, it was during the 'defective train' incident at Bank (service suspended 19.15 to 20.15). The incident train was EB set 11. EB train 14 was stalled behind and authorised forward to detrain its passengers onto the platform. Hence the two close together - all done within the rules.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2012 8:32:24 GMT
Definitely not a "train split in two" - there are no trains put together with two "A" (cab) cars in the middle. Tell your mate he's wrong.
Reganorak is right, we can do this in Restricted Manual, max speed 14kph
|
|
|
|
Post by alfie on Feb 12, 2012 8:44:01 GMT
Do you know why occasionally there are 3rd car cabs?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2012 9:12:39 GMT
Not a clue, I just drive 'em, I don't put 'em together in the depot. There's only about 4 or 5 out there and they are all made up of 3 a/b units with a c/b, none with all four units a/b
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2012 11:56:17 GMT
In normal service conditions are trains ever seen with the tail end of one leaving a platform and the next one's front car coming into the station on the lines that run in auto mode, thanks?
|
|
|
|
Post by alfie on Feb 12, 2012 12:01:39 GMT
No, but at Leyton it is possible to see the next train coming (a fair way in the distance might I add) with one in the platform in the peaks.. or the one you just missed..
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2012 12:12:14 GMT
No, you'll always have a train's length between the two, ATP (Auto or CM) will not allow the train behind to enter the track circuit ahead if its not clear, it will stop you at the BMB.
|
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 12, 2012 14:26:10 GMT
Do you know why occasionally there are 3rd car cabs? I understand from articles written at the time that an excess of a/b units compared with c/b was provided to allow some operational flexibility - an a/b can deputise for a c/b in the middle of a train but a c/b cannot be on the end. I would assume that having a train of four a/b units is avoided because it reduces passenger space. Even if one were formed, there is only a 1 in 4 chance the cabs would be together - the middle units could both be facing the same way, or back to back - and the face to face situation is probably best avoided as it would result in a long section in the middle of the platforms with no entrance to the train. But it was certainly possible - I have a photo of an eight car train of W&C stock, under test on the Central - obviously there have to be two cabs together in the middle of that formation! |
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,770
|
Post by Chris M on Feb 12, 2012 14:45:28 GMT
No, but at Leyton it is possible to see the next train coming (a fair way in the distance might I add) with one in the platform in the peaks.. or the one you just missed.. It gets closer than that at Stratford eastbound in the peaks sometimes. There the rear of the first train is between the platform and the tunnel, while the front of the second train is between the tunnel and the platform at the other end of the station. |
|
|
|
Post by jardine01 on Feb 12, 2012 15:46:18 GMT
I did not reailise that trains could get so close to each other on a fixed block signaling system?
|
|
|
|
Post by alfie on Feb 12, 2012 17:48:52 GMT
Yes, they can and I have seen it..train in the EB at Stratford, Both the next trains displayed as 1min on the DMI. Thick and fast they came, like Chris said front and rear between tunnel and platform.
|
|
|
|
Post by jardine01 on Feb 12, 2012 19:14:34 GMT
Is it just the ATO lines which can get this close?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2012 19:54:33 GMT
I did not reailise that trains could get so close to each other on a fixed block signaling system? The trains safety systems would have to be turned off, so restricted manual selected, then there is no limits to how close you can get. Nothing to stop conventionally signaled lines doing this, I don't know if there's a tripcock override or similar, or whether the train just gets tripped and restarts. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2012 19:56:15 GMT
No, you'll always have a train's length between the two, ATP (Auto or CM) will not allow the train behind to enter the track circuit ahead if its not clear, it will stop you at the BMB. It's not always a train length though? I mean some BMB's are less than 25 meters apart, but it's safe because the speed enforced in that section means if you go through the BMB you'll stop before hitting the back of the train in front. Correct? |
|
|
|
Post by causton on Feb 12, 2012 21:15:55 GMT
Correct, such as stations (which is why you have to go through them at 5mph when they are closed!) ...I *thought* my OpenBVE simulation was inaccurate when I stopped at a signal with the train in front was in the platform literally three metres in front!  (Northern Line if you're wondering!) |
|
|
|
Post by alfie on Feb 12, 2012 23:25:38 GMT
I did not reailise that trains could get so close to each other on a fixed block signaling system? The trains safety systems would have to be turned off, so restricted manual selected, then there is no limits to how close you can get. Nothing to stop conventionally signaled lines doing this, I don't know if there's a tripcock override or similar, or whether the train just gets tripped and restarts. I think on those lines the safety procedure is to get tripped, reset, restart, and motor up slowly. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2012 23:48:50 GMT
Thanks for the replies guys.
I had guessed that it was probably something like that, maybe the trains being moved due to some sort of disruption. I was just surprised to see them that close together.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2012 16:25:09 GMT
The trains safety systems would have to be turned off, so restricted manual selected, then there is no limits to how close you can get. Nothing to stop conventionally signaled lines doing this, I don't know if there's a tripcock override or similar, or whether the train just gets tripped and restarts. I think on those lines the safety procedure is to get tripped, reset, restart, and motor up slowly. It is, and some trains have a SCAT (Speed Control After Tripping) timer to ensure that the train speed is restricted for 2 mins after the trip occurs. |
|
|
|
Post by plasmid on Feb 14, 2012 21:15:10 GMT
I've seen it in normal service (supposedly), I walked down the stairs to the rear of the Eastbound platform as a 92ts was just leaving and there was one behind with the front about 5 metres from the platform which seemed to come to a stop quite harsly, then he whistled for a long time for some reason. Once the train in front had left he proceeded into the station uber slowly.
|
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Feb 14, 2012 22:30:27 GMT
On the Vic, the train behind seems to draw up closer than what I've seen on other lines.
In days gone past when they had speed controlled signalling, the front of the next train was able to enter the platform as the read of the first train was leaving it.
|
|
North End
Beneath Newington Causeway
Posts: 1,769
|
Post by North End on Feb 14, 2012 23:00:52 GMT
On the Vic, the train behind seems to draw up closer than what I've seen on other lines. In days gone past when they had speed controlled signalling, the front of the next train was able to enter the platform as the read of the first train was leaving it. On the Northern, this can very nearly be achieved at Oval n/b and Waterloo n/b when the service is blocking back. Takes a bit of nerve, and get it wrong and there's a very high chance of a SPAD! Oval n/b is also a bit un-nerving if there's a train held at the first signal after the platform. If that train's been there a while, it's possible for the next train to come into the platform at full speed (35 mph) on greens, including a green signal under the platform about 1 car length in, and yet be confronted with the rear of a train only a very short distance beyond the station starter. Gave me a fright the first time I experienced this -- running on greens all the way up from Morden, come round the corner into Oval also on greens and at full speed, and suddenly there's a train in front! Liverpool Street outer rail was/is like that, but the signalling was modified a few years ago so that if a train is just beyond the starter, the next train has to reduce speed at the home signal(s). I'm surprised the Oval setup hasn't been flagged up for mitigation works, as what with the first signal after the platform being semi (B.34) and a comparatively high chance of a train being held there, a full-speed SPAD on the station starter would not have a pleasant outcome. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2012 1:10:38 GMT
Gave me a fright the first time I experienced this -- running on greens all the way up from Morden, come round the corner into Oval also on greens and at full speed, and suddenly there's a train in front! That sounds like brown trousers time! |
|
|
|
Post by jardine01 on Feb 15, 2012 17:10:37 GMT
I suppose when the Northern goes TBTC this will be a frequent occurrance with trains close to each other!
|
|
|
|
Post by trt on Feb 15, 2012 17:15:22 GMT
How will that axle counter at Euston City S/B work over the junction? If a train goes off towards the N/B track with the aim of reversing into the old platform stub, then it won't have cleared the axle counters on the outbound arm of that junction. And if it does clear, then it will definitely sit on top of it when the train is backed up and stabled.
|
|
|
|
Post by fleetline on Apr 17, 2012 18:35:31 GMT
I've seen on the Northern Line at Elephant & Castle. Tho as the platforms a bit longer han the 95ts, there was a whole train in platform with doors open and second one almost touching with cab by the swing gate.
Didn't realise at first but when you clock it, makes you jump!
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,770
|
Post by Chris M on Apr 17, 2012 20:38:42 GMT
That sounds like the second train has been brought forward to detrain through the cab. This will normally only happen when the train in the platform has some sort of problem that prevents it being (quickly) moved, although I suppose if you have to detrain two trains you can do this to start emptying the second before the first is complete. I've only seen this once (at Newbury Park inner rail), and I know it's not common but how often it actually happens I don't know.
|
|
|
|
Post by superteacher on Apr 17, 2012 21:02:31 GMT
That sounds like the second train has been brought forward to detrain through the cab. This will normally only happen when the train in the platform has some sort of problem that prevents it being (quickly) moved, although I suppose if you have to detrain two trains you can do this to start emptying the second before the first is complete. I've only seen this once (at Newbury Park inner rail), and I know it's not common but how often it actually happens I don't know. Seen it a couple of times over the years. First time was at Euston Square outer rail when an A stock was brought forward to detrain with a C stock in the platform. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 9:09:29 GMT
I've seen it on the Central line (I thinkt that's correct) when the train is sat in the platform, you can see the lights of the approaching train in the tunnel and seconds after the first train has gone, the second has moved in
|
|
(Northern Line if you're wondering!)
